Life After Law School | Episode 1 | Be a sponge
Today we meet three law graduates who have started their career journey in consulting. While they all found the law interesting, they didn't really want to be lawyers. Instead, they've found that by following their "pure interest" and possessing a willingness to learn, they've found an unexpected career pathway open up to them. Music: Upbeat Party by Scott Holmes (CC BY NC license)
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Life After Law School features amazing stories of people who are using their law degrees in unusual ways.
Transcript | Life After Law School | Episode 1 | Be a sponge
[00:00:00] Amy Scarlet: Welcome to Life After Law School. I'm Amy Scarlet.
[00:00:08] If you're a law student, chances are you're finding yourself absolutely drowning in a huge amount of information about your career. Often at law school, the focus is on getting a job and a major law firm. While it's a great ambition, it's not the whole picture. Around 50% of law graduates choose to work in other areas outside of law, and of those who do go on to becoming lawyers, most never actually set foot in a major firm.
[00:00:38] So what brings us here, life after Law School aims to help you see all the exciting career paths. That your degree can unlock outside the narrow focus of major law firms. In this podcast series, you're going to meet law graduates in various stages of their career. They're working for consulting firms as in-house lawyers in logistics, or taking in more creative routes such as a writer.
[00:01:06] Today you're gonna meet three law graduates who have started their career in consulting, working in cybersecurity, tax, and financial services. Emily Smith, gy ga, and Ben sas are all graduates from consulting firm ey, and they join us now. Hello everyone. Hello, uh, thank you so much for being with us today.
[00:01:27] Really, really appreciate your time, um, and also your insights that you're going to give, uh, very, very important. So, um, I'll start off by, you know, introducing you by saying your names. Um, and if you could say hi, so everyone can kind of put your names to voices, that would be brilliant. Uh, but I'll let you all, uh, talk to who you are essentially and, uh, give a bit of an introduction about yourself.
[00:01:48] All right. So we'll kickstart with. Emily Smith. Uh, so Emily, you are within the financial services tax team. Uh, give us a bit more insight about what that division does.
[00:01:59] Emily Smith: Okay, so I'm, as you just said, in financial services tax. Um, to be quite honest, when I first applied for this job, um, I had no idea what I was falling into.
[00:02:10] Uh, but essentially, uh, we work within three sectors. So we work within, um, the wealth and management sector. We work in banking and we also work. Um. Insurance. And so, so far I've had a bit of experience across all three sectors. Um, but the idea is that as you progress through, um. Y in at ey, sorry. And you, um, move up the ranks.
[00:02:34] You tend to specialize and move towards one sector. Um, at this point I'm still trying to learn the ropes and, um, just get my tax technical skills up to speed. So I haven't really thought too much about where I'm gonna specialize eventually, but, um, I'm really enjoying. Getting that exposure.
[00:02:54] Amy Scarlet: Awesome. And I'm just
[00:02:54] Emily Smith: trying to be a big sponge.
[00:02:55] Amy Scarlet: Yeah, that's great. That's brilliant. Thank you very much Emily. We'll come back to you, um, in a moment, but what we'll do is, uh, move on to Vicki Gao. So, hi Vicki. Uh, you are within tax technology and transformation. So if you can, I guess, introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your team, that'd be awesome.
[00:03:12] Vicki Gao: Yeah, no worries Amy. Um, yeah, so tax transformation and technology, quite a bit of a mouthful. Um. Similar to m like had no idea what I was really getting into, just sort of when I applied, applied for a general tax, um, the tax service line. Um, but what we basically do is we sort of compliment, um, a lot of the other tax teams like, um, M'S team and we help deliver technological solutions to whatever tax problems.
[00:03:43] Um. Their clients may have. So for example, right now I'm working with, um, some of EM'S teammates on sort of, um, automating. One of their sort of returns processes. Um, but yeah, it's quite interesting. I don't have a background in technology at all. Interest. Interesting. So it's a huge learning curve, but, um, has been really rewarding and insightful.
[00:04:09] Amy Scarlet: Wonderful. Well, we'll, we'll come back to about, I guess, your education background in a minute. Um, we'll move on to Ben. So Ben sas, uh, within cybersecurity. So a bit of instruction from you, Ben, please.
[00:04:21] Ben Sass: Um, hi. Hello me. Um, so yeah, I'm with EY Cybersecurity Team. Uh, they're part of the advisory section. Um, and it's, it's a weird one in that it covers a lot of stuff that would.
[00:04:38] Traditionally be part of different teams. The cyber aspect comes in in many different projects and many different ways that I'm sure everyone's becoming more and more aware of. Mm-hmm. Um, so really current, very interesting. Mm-hmm. Um, and runs anywhere from extremely technical to entirely non-technical.
[00:04:59] Amy Scarlet: Yeah.
[00:04:59] Ben Sass: Um, and yeah, it's a big learning curve for me 'cause I didn't do that kind of thing at uni at all. Um, but. Really enjoying it.
[00:05:08] Amy Scarlet: Awesome. Um, we jump forward. What I'd like to hear from everyone is a bit about, I guess, ey a bit more broadly. Uh, so I know it's a multinational, um, global firm. It's one of the big four.
[00:05:21] Um, so historically that would've been like a big four accounting firm, but now they're professional services firm. So, um, could you give us a bit more, I guess, insights. To, um, what it's like, you know, within EY and, and what they actually do. And, um, you know, if someone was going to go to ey, why would they go to ey?
[00:05:38] Emily Smith: Okay. I think I can take that one on. Uh, so ey, uh, as you just said, is a professional services firm, um, that's broken up into four service lines. Um, there's advisory assurance, tax, and um, ts, which is Transaction advisory Services, correct? Yeah. Yes. Yep. Uh, so. There's, uh, a whole lot of different teams, um, and they're, they're broken up into, um, core teams mm-hmm.
[00:06:06] In those areas. And there's also financial services, um, teams for all four service lines. Um, so it's essentially a mini business in itself. The financial services, um, sector, or sorry, financial services line, um, and. Basically, um, I think we've seen firsthand since we've been working here is the power of, um, the.
[00:06:31] Integrating all of those service lines together to produce an outcome for clients. Mm-hmm. Um, it's no longer a matter of just sitting down and doing a tax return for someone. Mm-hmm. Um, and handing it over and that's the end of it. Um, there's a whole lot of other, well, this is from my perspective, there's a whole lot of other tax implications and there's constantly changes to the law, as I'm sure all of you know.
[00:06:53] Um, so we all have to. Keep on top of those. And we have to really bring in all different teams, um, with their knowledge and skills to be able to, um, answer questions that clients have because they're coming to you with the expectation that you have the answers. And, um, yeah. So as long as you know who to reach out to, um, then you can generally give that kind an answer.
[00:07:16] But there's that beauty of being able to. Um, get in contact with awesome people from all different teams. Yeah. So
[00:07:23] Amy Scarlet: just for, um, I guess clarification now, financial services office or the financial services aspect, um, of the teams, they essentially service financial services clients, right? Yes. So that be, whether that be banks or superannuation funds, so on and so forth.
[00:07:40] So that's kind of what that means, right? And then core or everything else is essentially. Any other industry, it catches
[00:07:46] Emily Smith: everything. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:07:47] Amy Scarlet: Yeah. Okay, cool. Just good for clarification. Yeah, sure. Because I think that can be a bit, you know, confusing when students going, right. So I want to work at ey, um, or, you know, any of the other sort of Big Four or wherever.
[00:07:58] Um, and if they have that divide between the two, it's kind of what does that actually mean? Well, I know,
[00:08:05] Emily Smith: so corporate tax, which is the more core tax mm-hmm. Um, they do exactly the same. Um, stuff as us. Yeah. So we prepare tax returns, we review tax returns, and we review tax calculations. Um, and they do that exact same thing Okay.
[00:08:20] For their clients. It's just a different industry. Awesome. So, okay.
[00:08:23] Amy Scarlet: Yeah. Interesting. No. Alright, well, we'll, uh, get into, I guess. Your degree background. Right. So, um, we are obviously here at Monash University, um, and, you know, students are going through, I guess, the process of figuring out where they ultimately want to work or.
[00:08:42] Through that process, it's actually understanding and discovering what their options are. Okay. So, um, you know, some may be, uh, I guess if you're talking about the law faculty, a traditional, you know, law path. So, uh, working in a law firm as a lawyer, um, so on and so forth. Or I guess there's pretty much any other industry that they could potentially work in.
[00:09:03] It doesn't have to be, you know, a lawyer or an even an in-house lawyer. So, um. Understanding your degree background and, and how you think that fits in your current, uh, role, if at all. Um, and then also, I guess what other sort of people in your team have a different sort of degree? So Vicki, you wanna kick some?
[00:09:20] Oh, okay. Cool. No worries.
[00:09:21] Vicki Gao: Um, yeah. So I am not from Monash. Mm-hmm. So I studied at a NU in Canberra, um, and I completed a Bachelor of Actuarial studies and Bachelor's of Law. Um. I always sort of knew I never wanted to be a lawyer. I, but I have always found the law quite interesting and thought it would be good sort of knowledge to have in the future for any sort of career path.
[00:09:47] Um, and I picked actuarial studies 'cause I was really good at maths in high school, but then got to uni and found out I wasn't actually so good at maths anymore. Um, but yeah, so I had this, I did sort of have a law job in my like summer of like first year. And I worked in a personal injuries law, law firm, and I absolutely hated it.
[00:10:09] And like that sort of like, uh, cemented the idea that I definitely didn't want to be a lawyer. Anyway, fast forward couple of years. I worked at Apple for, for four years as sort of a retail assistant and then. Moved into like the technical space and help people fix their iPhones and whatnot. And I've always loved technology, how it's always so new and current and sort of engaging with fancy new products.
[00:10:34] So I kind of wanted to like move into that space but didn't have a technical, um, it or software background at all. And finally, like sort of like moving even more forward after Apple, I. Joined the government as like a contractor for maybe just under a year, um, as a paralegal role, but didn't really enjoy it much.
[00:10:58] Um. So again, didn't wanna move into law. And then I sort of, um, came across tax at EY and I really wanted to move out of Canberra, even though I love Canberra, but I didn't wanna live there for the rest of my life and Melbourne's always been really interesting. Um, and then yeah, sort of just came across this tax technology and transformation team was really worried that I would not sort of qualify, given that I have no.
[00:11:25] Technical background, but ay has been really supportive. Um, and my mentors, or managers have been really encouraging of me to like, learn new skills, um, play around with new programs and sort of get that exposure to what we sort of do. And that's been really rewarding. So. Yeah, that's kind of my background into how I ended up in TTT.
[00:11:46] Amazing. TTT. A
[00:11:47] Amy Scarlet: bit of acronyms throwing around there, huh? Yeah. Wonderful. That's great. Thank you Vicki. Um, Ben, bit of insight.
[00:11:56] Ben Sass: So I was, um, a wonderful alumni of this windy campus. I was a Monash kid. Um, I did materials engineering and law, uh, graduated at the end of last year and, you know, you might put.
[00:12:10] Cybersecurity and materials eng kind in the, well, he's technical, not so, trust me, materials Eng was, um, the lightest on it, uh, electrical, um, and technical stuff. Uh, so I don't have a background, uh, in cyber or it at all. Um, I did the old, uh, waiting tables for two years. You gotta do that at uni. Mm-hmm. Um, I did a short internship with Anto, which is the Australian Nuclear Science and Tech Organization in Sydney.
[00:12:44] We have one nuclear reactor in Australia and that's where it is. So all you Sydney side is watch out. Um, and then I got a summer internship at CSR. Um, and they kept me on part-time. So I moved through all the various things that CSIO does, um, in the manufacturing space. 3D printing, but also some business focused stuff, patents, ip, um, and came to the end of my degree with a jack of all kind of approach.
[00:13:25] Um, really broad based background. Uh. And found perhaps the only thing out there that I had no experience in, um, which was it. So sure I can, I can whip excel around a bit. Um, and PowerPoint is pretty useful in consulting we've come to, come to realize. Um, but in terms of whether I walked out, uh, of my degree and into a grad job that.
[00:13:56] Matched what I'd studied, matched what I thought for myself, not so. Mm-hmm. Um, it was a passing interest. And I keep up with the news and you hear about, well, this company got hacked, that company got hacked. And so I was curious, how, how does this happen? How does it, how does it work? And one of the things that, um, I believe was, was picked up by, um, my managers in the cyber team was.
[00:14:25] Just that pure interest. Um, and that serves you surprisingly well, I think is just showing an interest. And, um, I, I know how law at Monash, if not everywhere else works, is that you try and show an interest to everything because you're trying to get a grad job and that's just what you do. Um, uh, but. When it comes to finding a grad job outside the law, I'm sure most people have interests outside the law, and that really comes in strongly.
[00:15:03] And having that legal background as well, it just elevates you. Yeah. So, um, that's, that's how I ended up in cybersecurity.
[00:15:10] Amy Scarlet: Yeah. Really, really interesting story. Um, Emily, curious to hear yours. Yes.
[00:15:16] Emily Smith: Uh, so I studied a double degree in, um, commerce and. Uh, and at the time, I think because I had quite a tight group of law friends at uni, and I'm sure this is the case with lots of unis, you, you tend to get this tunnel vision where everyone is striving to get a clerkship and then everyone's striving for that job straight out of uni.
[00:15:41] Um. A law firm. Um, but I had a friend actually that, um, came back after doing an internship at a big four, um, in the year That, or the year, yeah, the start of the year that I, um, finished uni and, um, she just spoke so highly of her experience at this Big four firm and it sort of got me thinking like, oh, maybe, maybe law isn't it for me?
[00:16:06] And. And I, I have to say my, my grades were good, but they wouldn't have probably gotten me a law job, so I just decided to be a little bit more realistic. Um, and I majored in accounting and really enjoyed that. And I think my strength was actually commerce as much as I probably would've preferred it to be law at the time.
[00:16:27] Um, and so then when the, um, applications came out for the grad program at ey, I really jumped on that because, um. Purely because of that experience that she'd had. And I thought, oh wow. Like we are quite similar in personality. And I thought she, yeah, and she did that accounting major as well. So I thought, I'll, I'll give it a try.
[00:16:48] Um, and I applied and the process was quite quick. And then suddenly I found myself with a GR job at ey. So, um. Yeah, I, I mean, I think it was something that was a bit impulsive in the end and I kind of went, oh, I may as well give it a go because, you know, we are young and we, we have the freedom to, you know, go out and try something new.
[00:17:10] Um, I. And yeah, it couldn't have been a better decision in the end. Um, I'm so glad that I had that light bulb moment that maybe law isn't for me. Yeah. Um, I did, I did a few internships throughout uni. I did, um, some work at Refugee Legal and I also did, um, some work at Social Security Rights and, um, that was really interesting as well.
[00:17:32] Um, but I just think, yeah, um, I still, I still apply law in the work that I do every day. So I by no means think it was a waste of my time. Um, and I probably wouldn't have gotten the job that I'm in without it. So, or yeah, or sort of being able to survive to this point. So
[00:17:51] Amy Scarlet: that's a really good point. It's, um, you know, even if you don't become, um, I guess or go down that traditional law path, it doesn't discount your degree.
[00:18:00] Um, not at all. Every single one of you and your stories have, you know, pointed to, uh, yes. You're not. A traditional lawyer, but you've used your degree in some way, shape, or form. So, um, really interesting to hear that. And I think, uh, students find that really valuable to hear that because as you've all mentioned, you know, at one point in time you're probably thinking, right, I'm studying a law degree, I now am going to become a lawyer.
[00:18:25] Is this what I want to do? I don't know. Um, and you've kind of navigated your way through that, which is awesome. Um, but any sort of, I guess grad. Opportunities, internships, or you call it vacation programs, is that right? At uh, ey. Yeah. And even pre that. So I guess your, um, you know, any early identification programs, anything like that, um, that is available to, you know, students and at what point in their degree, so what should they apply and how would they do that?
[00:18:54] Vicki Gao: Yeah, so there is the vacationer program for students in their penultimate year. Um. Graduate programs for people in there, uh, to apply, to start once they graduate. And I always advise people to like get in, get their applications in early. As for other programs, there's um, cadet programs as well. Uhhuh, the cadet
[00:19:19] Amy Scarlet: programs there a bit.
[00:19:21] Um, they kind of work full time almost, or four days a week while study, study part-time. Okay. Yeah. So they would probably be in there. They'd have to have what, two years? Left of school before they apply. Yeah. Yeah. So they're applying in like their first of a three year or third of a five year. Yeah. So as a
[00:19:39] Vicki Gao: law student, I think of it like third year.
[00:19:41] Yeah. So a third year student. Um, and yeah, really encourage you to have a look there. Uh, other opportunities mentioned on our website. Awesome.
[00:19:51] Amy Scarlet: Did a bit of research and, um, the career compass program that's coming up, uh, so that's like a two day program or it might be a three day program. I think it's, um, been a bit different over the years, but, um, essentially that's for students in their pre penultimate year.
[00:20:07] Um, and they can come in and they learn a bit about EY and the different sub-service lines. 'cause as you mentioned earlier, Emily, there's. Four core service lines. Um, and then this is a fifth, right? Private client, oh, sorry. Uh, people advisory services. Um, so yeah, within those, there's obviously lots of different teams and they all seem to do really different sort of, um, work.
[00:20:30] Uh, and to navigate your way around that little loan, like try to figure out what sort of career path you wanna take is quite difficult. So that's probably a really good program for students to go if they're, you know, engaged early enough, um, to learn more about. The sub-service lines. Yeah. Um, to hopefully then be a bit more angled when they're applying for the vacation program that you mentioned.
[00:20:49] Vicki Gao: Yeah, definitely. And there's always heaps of networking, um, and recruitment events. So if Monash has, um, which I'm sure Monash will have, like, uh, career weeks. Mm-hmm. Um, they'll often be an EY stand, so, you know, don't feel afraid to come up and like talk to us or whoever's there. Yeah. We're always eager to, yeah.
[00:21:09] Showcase what EY has to offer. Awesome. And
[00:21:12] Ben Sass: I would like to point out that our eminent presenter spent many years in the talent team at ey, so she knows far more than I think most of us as grads would know on the, uh, yeah. Specific ins and outs of the talent and, um. Incoming roles when it comes to ey. So thank listen up Ben.
[00:21:33] Thanks for
[00:21:33] Amy Scarlet: the introduction. You're welcome. No, I appreciate that. Um, yeah, you did catch me out there, so I probably sound like I know more than what you would expect anyone to know about it. 'cause I, yeah. Used to work there. So, um, I guess touching on that really high level won't. It won't be about me, but, um, I started out as a grad, um, at ey funnily enough, my career path, um, when I started uni I wanted to do health science, and then I transferred over to a business school.
[00:21:59] Um, and, and that was because I was playing soccer. Um, and the school that I wanted to go for was soccer overseas, was a business school. Um, and then I was like, what am I good at? Math and science? So I guess I'll become an accountant. Makes complete sense. Anyhow, long story short, um, went through the graduate process at ey.
[00:22:17] Loved it, worked in tax myself, so same as Emily and also Vicky. Um, and yeah. Jumped ship from there internally, uh, to the, uh, career side. So doing campus recruitment. Um, and I guess, you know, to give that insight, the only benefit of that right now is just to say, just because you think that you might, you know, your career is going one way.
[00:22:41] It might end up going somewhere else. And look where I am now. I'm at Monash. Um, you know, on the flip side, kind of talking to students about those sort of employment opportunities and what that looks like. So, um, yeah, I think a really, I guess if I was going to provide any sort of insight, it's just enjoy the ride, right?
[00:22:57] Like it's a fun, exciting journey. Um, and I think we put too much pressure on ourselves as students. That we have to know where we wanna be in 20 years time and the role that we're gonna step into as soon as we walk out the door at university is going to be that job. And if I don't land that job, then I don't know what I'm going to do.
[00:23:17] But, um, I think it's, yeah, super exciting to absolutely.
[00:23:20] Emily Smith: And the beauty of working in somewhere like EY is there's room to move. So once you're in and you, you sort of do get a sense of what the other teams do, just from contacting them and um, asking them questions. And if you get the sense that the team you're in isn't the team for you, and you'd actually prefer to be somewhere else, they can facilitate that.
[00:23:40] Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, that is definitely an advantage. That's awesome. Of working somewhere like ey
[00:23:46] Amy Scarlet: Yeah. Lots of opportunity. So. I guess to, to wrap it up, um, you've all been brilliant and I really do appreciate you guys coming in and, you know, providing this insight. It's been amazing. Uh, if you were going to give, you know, students one hint or tip or you know, um, a piece of advice, um, what would it be?
[00:24:08] Um,
[00:24:09] Vicki Gao: I think for me, the one piece of advice that I sort of wish I had would just be like. You know, there's light at the end of the tunnel. In my final year, I, I had sort of very mediocre grades, sort of had that same worry that like, oh no, I'm not gonna get a grad job or a clerkship or whatever. Um, but there's like hope as, as long as you sort of like follow what you are passionate in or like have a keen interest in like Ben mentioned and I had that interest in sort of technology and wanting to explore that further.
[00:24:46] So I sort of. Kind of focused that, um, focused on that and yeah, just don't, don't be afraid. It, it. Always works out in the end. And I know I can, you know, you might think that I can say that 'cause you know, I have, I'm like now working or whatever, but like, it honestly does. And um, some of my friends are, you know, going through that process now and they're about to like graduate and they're like, yeah, they're, all they've said is like, yeah, it's, it's not the end of the world.
[00:25:17] And if you find out that, you know, you don't wanna go down that path, there are always other options for you as well.
[00:25:24] Amy Scarlet: Great. Really good, really good insights. Thank you very much. Shaki, who's next? We've got a point in a Ben. Let's go Ben. Right.
[00:25:30] Ben Sass: So I'll, I'll make a shameless Monash plug. Um, very quickly, careers connect, really useful.
[00:25:35] They're great. Have a chat to them. They'll tell you what's on. Um, really good contact. Um, and they frequently get speakers in who have come from all walks of life and all backgrounds. Including law, um, and those who took law degrees and didn't do law and Monash careers connector well across that so they know who they're getting in and how it might relate to you.
[00:25:57] Um, and from a personal level, uh, something that was imparted to me was that obviously you're not, very few people are gonna walk into their dream job straight out of the gate. Um, it's just not a reality for most of us. Uh, but if you have that in mind and everything kind of, it's based on skills and steps.
[00:26:24] You know, you make baby steps to get there, and so if you have an idea of what you want to be and the kind of skills that you want to have. You will spend the rest of your life building up those skills because your dream job is going to be in your thirties or in your forties, and that's just a reality that, um, most people will have to deal with.
[00:26:49] So don't be afraid to go sideways because I reckon you'll be surprised what you find.
[00:26:54] Amy Scarlet: Amazing, amazing. It made me just go, oh,
[00:27:00] that's so inspirational.
[00:27:01] Emily Smith: Um, loved it. Uh, Emily, uh, I think my main piece of advice would just be, be a sponge. And I think when you go to interviews. Just, it's always said, but just try and be yourself and you don't need to claim to know more than, you know. Uh, I think there is that expectation because, um, you know, um, a uni degree like law is, um, so tough and so competitive.
[00:27:26] I think you, you compare yourself just without thinking to other people. And, and I think once you get in there into an interview, um, someone can gauge instantly whether you are being. Yourself or whether you are saying things that they want to hear or you think they want to hear. Um, and then once, once you're in a job, don't again, don't say, oh, yes, I know, or, um, don't try and put up this facade of knowing everything because they don't expect you to know anything.
[00:27:58] I mean, what you learn out of a textbook can only translate so much into real life. And employers know that. And I think they really appreciate it when you do admit not to knowing everything and um, yeah, as long as you're receptive to. You know, feedback and to growth and, um, you show enthusiasm. That's really the main thing, I think.
[00:28:20] 'cause I think we can all safely assume that everyone in the room and who's listening, um, is intelligent.
[00:28:28] Ben Sass: You reckon The Lord agrees about learning to learn more than anything else.
[00:28:31] Vicki Gao: Or like solving problems. Yeah. Or like how to think,
[00:28:34] Ben Sass: learn fast. Yeah. Solve, not necessarily the technical knowledge, but Yeah,
[00:28:38] Amy Scarlet: absolutely.
[00:28:39] Thank you. Thanks for having us, you very much. That's Emily Smith, Vicki Gow and Ben Sas from ey Life After Law School comes to you from the faculty of law at Monash University. Before we go, EY has requested that I add this disclaimer to today's episode. The views expressed in this podcast are those of the individual speakers themselves, not Ernst and Young.
[00:29:02] The podcast provides general information, does not constitute advice, and should not be relied on as such. Professional advice should be sought prior to any action being taken in reliance on any of the information. Liability limited by a scheme approved under professional standards legislation. I'm Amy Scarlet.
[00:29:20] See you next time.