Life After Law School | Episode 2 | Sometimes life has better plans

Chances are you're a fan of online shopping. You click on ‘Go to checkout’, pay for what’s in your cart and wait patiently for your purchase to arrive. But what happens between the point of paying and the goods actually arriving in the mail? Today, we’ll meet two law graduates who play an important role in getting those goods to your door. Music: Upbeat Party by Scott Holmes (CC BY NC license).

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Transcript | Life After Law School | Episode 2 | Sometimes life has better plans

[00:00:00] Elva Jung: It was a bit different from how I envisioned back at law school, but sometimes I think life has better plans.

[00:00:08] Amy Scarlet: Welcome to Life After Law School. I'm Amy Scarlet, and we are embracing those words today. Sometimes life has better plans on life After law school, you are going to get career insight. Firsthand from law graduates who have forged their own paths.

[00:00:28] If you're like me, you're a bit of a fan of online shopping, you click go to checkout, pay for what's in your cart. I don't mind a promo code FYI, and you wait patiently for those goods to arrive. Or impatiently in my case. But what happens between the point of you paying for it and it actually arriving in the mail?

[00:00:48] Today, we'll meet two law graduates who play an important role in getting those goods to your door.

[00:00:55] Elva Jung: My name's Elva Jung, so I currently work. As a corporate council for annual container line, but also for annual O Singapore, P-T-O-T-D, which is a subsidiary of annual container line. So essentially annual L, which we call the annual group, is an ocean carrier.

[00:01:09] We specialize in containerized shipping and we pride take great pride in being the Oceania specialist. Uh, you know, um, from. All around the world we're transporting cargoes and to, mainly to Australia, New Zealand and Pacific Island areas. Hi,

[00:01:25] Olivia Jones: I'm Olivia Jones. I'm the general council and head of strategy at Victoria International Container Terminal.

[00:01:30] And we are the container terminal, uh, based out in, in Port Melbourne. We are an automated terminal, so it means that as the container come into the terminal. Getting the container off the truck and onto the ship is an entirely automated, um, journey. So we work very closely with a and l that we put containers on and off they're ships.

[00:01:49] Um, so I'm general counsel and head of strategy, so I've got a mixed legal and strategy role.

[00:01:54] Amy Scarlet: Awesome. Okay. Um. I guess to give a bit more insight to the students about the industry itself, uh, can you give us some more, you know, back? Yeah. So the supply

[00:02:04] Olivia Jones: and logistics, um, sector is essentially how you get the, you know, the, the goods from a different country or from a different part of Australia onto the, the supermarket shelf or how it gets into your hand if you get a, if you order it online so it can, and have a, a.

[00:02:20] Wide, wide range of, of, of methods of getting it from the paddock or from the, the factory to the shop or to the, um, into your front door. It can be rail, it can be, um, cars and, and trucks. It can be ship, it can be air. So broadly it's getting your product into your hand. Is, is. Is, is it in a nutshell,

[00:02:38] Amy Scarlet: a little bit about yourselves now would be great.

[00:02:40] So understanding, uh, your education background, uh, what you studied, uh, and essentially what your thought of a career was going to be in your mind while you were studying.

[00:02:53] Elva Jung: Wow. Okay.

[00:02:55] Amy Scarlet: Big question

[00:02:55] Elva Jung: through it. A I was like, that's past life experience. Uh, long time ago now. So I originally came from China as an international student.

[00:03:02] Okay. So my first year I actually was studying in Brisbane and then I came down and I went to Trinity College as part of the, um, Melbourne University for international students. Okay. So after that I got into and studied law and arts at Melbourne. And so when I was studying law, I think. The reason for me to get into law school was I always wanted to change the world as a little kid.

[00:03:23] I think a lot of the students, especially arts law students, have that passion or desire of changing the world somehow. So that was the major drive for me to get into law school. Um, but also for. Translating to the practice of law. So I always had a passion for international law because that's the area I thought I can make most changes.

[00:03:43] And uh, so I pursued further studies in international economic law in particular. And a few years ago I went to study in Switzerland, uh, master specializing in international economic law. Wow, okay. So, however, now I work more in the private sector, so I know it is a shipping line. And for someone who has a passion for international law, I think, you know, I picked the right industry to work.

[00:04:04] Yeah. Shipping is very international. Our ships and vessels go around the world, sell around the world, and so it's very international by nature. So I think I'm very lucky for that. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Okay. So it was a bit different from high envisioned as um, backer Law School, but sometimes I think life has better plans, you know?

[00:04:21] Yeah.

[00:04:22] Amy Scarlet: Yeah. I would love to hear your journey, but we'll get back to you. Okay. Um. Olivia, if you could give us a bit of a background about your, you know, university degree and, um, yeah.

[00:04:32] Olivia Jones: So I did, um, law in, in England and um, started working at Clifford Chance, which is a big, um, major international law firm based in London.

[00:04:40] I was there for about six years, um, working in the property team. And then one Friday afternoon a partner came in and said, oh, how would you feel about moving to Abu Dhabi on a client secondment for three to six months? I ended up staying there for four years, working for a large. Property developer based in Abu Dhabi.

[00:04:57] Um, some of my key projects were the gro, uh, the Grand Prix Track, uh, Ferrari World, which was the world's biggest indoor theme park. So it was really an exciting place to work that it was huge projects. That you can just work on and just take from a, literally a, a blank sheet of paper into fruition quite quickly.

[00:05:14] So I ended up staying there for four years and, and met and married an Australian. So, um, we got to about 20 11, 20 12 and thought, well, which side of the planet do we move to? And we, we picked Melbourne. So here we are. Um, I then, uh, moved back to, moved to Melbourne, worked at, um, king and Wood Madisons for.

[00:05:31] Um, about a year and I have to re-qualify. Um, 'cause I was an English qualified lawyer, so to be admitted to, to practice in in Melbourne. I needed to do five, um, university, uh, options and two PLT options. I started trying to do that, um, distance and it was just working at Madison's and trying to do that in the evening was just too hard.

[00:05:51] Hmm. And I really wanted to get back into working, um, in house. So I took a semester at Monash actually, and, and knocked out four of the, the subjects in one goal and then. Ended up having a baby as well. Mm-hmm. And then came back to work, um, at VICT. And at the time of working at VICT, I was brought on because of my, um, project background because they'd just been awarded the tender to build the third container terminal in Melbourne.

[00:06:15] And again, they had a blank sheet of paper and had to actually build the terminal from scratch. So it was my experience in, um, bringing big projects to life that really got me the job in the first place. We've been there for almost five years now. So I've really moved from project real estate lawyer into.

[00:06:31] Uh, just a general. Commercial lawyer where it's every, every day's a different day. Wow. So, yeah.

[00:06:37] Amy Scarlet: It's funny how people go on these journeys to get where they are now. You know, where you are now is not where you thought you were gonna be 10, 15 years ago. Yeah. So great to say that because that's exactly what I think students need to hear, uh, and that it's okay.

[00:06:51] Yeah. And that it's an exciting journey. Yeah. And there's a, it's a long journey, um, and, and embrace it. So, uh, that sounds great. It's just

[00:06:57] Olivia Jones: taking any opportunity that's offered to you. So it was, you know, somebody coming in and saying, do you wanna move to Abu Dhabi? And the first question was, well, I don't know.

[00:07:04] Do I wanna move to Abu Dhabi? And I literally wouldn't be sitting here today if you didn't, if I, if I'd said no. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's taking opportunities and seeking out opportunities like that, being open to them. Yes.

[00:07:13] Amy Scarlet: Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. It'd be great to hear your story Alva.

[00:07:17] Elva Jung: Right. So, um, journey, my first job was, um, actually, I, I saw one of the questions about my first job after law school.

[00:07:24] Mm-hmm. I finished law school during GFC. Um, so that was actually really tough, but more important because I was international student and I had some issue with the visa, not issue per se, but then I didn't have the permanent residency visa. Okay. So for most firms, they wouldn't take you on unless you have a permanent residency visa.

[00:07:42] Okay. So you. Took me literally a year to find my first lawyer job. It was quite depressing at the time. Now I think, yeah, it's okay. It's a good story to share now. Yeah, absolutely. So it took me, literally, I was qualified, I think, as a lawyer, uh, admitted to the court in November seven, uh oh seven. Mm-hmm.

[00:07:57] And my first lawyer job came about September oh eight.

[00:08:00] Amy Scarlet: Okay.

[00:08:01] Elva Jung: It was a combination of, you know, I didn't have a PR and also GFC, you know, all these issues and most firms are just. Didn't take on any grads at, at the same time as well. But going back to what Olivia was saying, that the opportunity, so my, the partner who hired me, it was a, um, impersonal injury, but in Commonwealth Compensation, it's a very tiny jurisdiction and he was willing to take me on because I had a visit to work full time, but just didn't have a permanent residency.

[00:08:27] So he said, okay, as long as you can work legally, that's fine. Um, but. At the same time to make a decision. It's not what I wanted, a personal injury, but I thought to myself, at least I can use my legal skill. It's better than nothing. And he was a leading practitioner in that field as well. Yeah. So I start my first lawyer job and looking back I was, I'm very grateful.

[00:08:48] Mm. Even though it was not what I wanted, but the skills are very transferable. Drafting research, you know, and legal critical thinking, all these skills, you know, and I thought that 18 month was very important. For my career. And then, uh, I decided to look for other jobs because I do wanted to move into more, uh, international related field.

[00:09:09] And I still remember to this day, um, my partner, he realized I wanted to go for another job. And he said to me, because at the time I think I bought a small apartment, he said, you just took on apartment. I don't advise you to actually leave. What about this? You stay here, work while you're looking for other jobs.

[00:09:26] So he was fully aware of that. Oh. And he was supporting me. He was wonderful in that regard. And then when I went for the interview at a l and in, back in 2010, he even provided a letter of recommendation. Oh, oh, wow. As my current employer. Amazing. I think that was why I got a job. I went for one interview with, um, my current boss, Nick Sby, and I presented the letter of recommendation from my, uh, current employee, the partner, and I thought.

[00:09:52] Wow, that's wonderful. How he was supportive. You know, he understood that, you know, personal injury wasn't my preferred practice area, but he was willing to support me to pursue something I'm interested in. That is brilliant. So that was the start of, um, my 2010, you know, my first sting at NL. So I was working for, uh, NL and my current boss for about two and a half years.

[00:10:14] Then I decided to. Um, go to study in Switzerland. So I went, I pursued, um, international economic law Masters I mentioned. Okay. Um, but again, that's not very good story. Oh, it's, the story is much more positive than mine. No, everybody's story is a good story. No, now it's a good story. At the time it wasn't a good story at all.

[00:10:31] Um, I went because I still wanted to give a try my passion international law. Yeah. So I went, I went to Geneva and, uh. I was almost thought dream came true because I was literally studying next to, um, the WTO Wait organization, wait and the World Trade Organization. And, uh, I was studying international economic law with some leading, um, law professors specializing in, um, trade law and investment arbitration.

[00:10:55] I thought I hoped I could have stayed in Geneva. I find a job afterwards. But I couldn't, again, the visa usually came about, you know, you know, I didn't have a European um, passport. I didn't have Swiss passport. Of course, you know, it's very tough to stay. So, um, yeah, I left Niva quite disheartened. Okay. At that time I was very confused because I thought, you know, everyone has a childhood dream.

[00:11:18] You know, you have to pursue really hard, and people say your childhood dream will always be realized, but not mine. So I was very confused at the time and it caused me to wonder, maybe I shouldn't practice law. Shouldn't continue to practice law. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, in 2015 when I came back to um, Melbourne, I had literally a few months to really reflect what I really wanted to do.

[00:11:39] Mm-hmm. I was thinking about going to London to do a PhD, and then just by pure chunks I was catching up. For dinner with my current boss and he called me out. He said, I think it's not the right decision for you to go to UK to do PhD because if you wanted to pursue PhD, it should be out of inspiration.

[00:11:56] Mm-hmm. Not really out of desperation, which in my case that was true because I didn't want to continue practice law because my experience couldn't stay in Geneva, and I thought he was very right and honest. I really appreciate and. It was then, you know, he said, we are very busy. Would you be interested coming back to work part-time?

[00:12:14] Because we already had the two lawyers at the time, full-time, and they need another part-time lawyer. And I took the opportunity. Mm. I said, okay. Yeah. You know, so yeah. So going back, I think there's kind of synergy here about the story and um, yeah. I think looking back, that was all worked out perfectly and uh

[00:12:29] Amy Scarlet: Yeah.

[00:12:30] Yeah. But, and it's taking those opportunities and you, you had a lot of self-reflection there. Oh,

[00:12:35] Elva Jung: very deep self-reflection. Yeah. For three months. I think it's also

[00:12:37] Olivia Jones: the value of a good boss or a good mentor mentor to be able to say, actually, I, I think you're going down the wrong path. Yes. Path there. Yeah.

[00:12:45] And somebody being able to be honest enough with you. Yep. Rather just going, oh, okay. Off you go to London. Yeah. Let me know how you get on.

[00:12:51] Elva Jung: Yes. And I think he said it, um, because he can see why I was doing it. Mm. And I think part of me knew, but I didn't wanna a meter her. Mm. I was doing it for the not the right reason because.

[00:13:01] PhD is like very long journey, four years and moving to another country, you know, not knowing what's at the end as well. So a little bit of story, um, synchronicity. So I went back to work at NL and uh, three years later I left on the 21st of July, 2012. Then three years later, I start my job without US planning 22nd of July.

[00:13:21] 2015. Wow. And I was standing the lift with my colleague, Alison Cusack at the time, and my, um, boss, um, general counsel, Nick Slingsby, when we realized that, we were like, wow, it is so key. Yeah. Typically, like, you know, in way good. So that's a good sign, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:37] Amy Scarlet: And, and I think what we can take from that and for, I guess the context of the student, um, side is.

[00:13:44] Where you think your path is going to take you is not necessarily where it will go. Mm. Uh, it's being open to those opportunities. Yes. It's having that self-reflection. And if you, you can kind of listen to these stories now and hear that and start taking those on board. Mm. You know, as we are talking, uh, then that can help put them.

[00:14:05] In front. So when they have those situations where they're, what do I wanna do? Yeah. I don't know. Do I want to take this career path? I, I've tried my hardest to get there and I keep getting rejected. I can't get through. Mm. It's almost a case of that's okay because there'll be something else. Out there for you that you can do and that you can enjoy and it may take you somewhere else.

[00:14:26] Like you just said in your first job, you didn't want to do that. That wasn't where you wanted to take your, your life, you know? But your boss was really supportive Yes. To help you get to that next step. Uh, so, you know, it might not happen straight away. It might not happen after 10 times. It might happen on that 11th time or whenever that is.

[00:14:45] So I guess that's a really good transition into. Challenges. Mm-hmm. So you've mentioned a few of your challenges, which was amazing. Um, Olivia would love to hear a bit about yours.

[00:14:54] Olivia Jones: Um, I think one of the big challenges I had was actually, um, the requalification journey I had when I moved to Melbourne. So I've got an, an English law degree i'd, I'd practiced in in England for a, a number of years.

[00:15:05] But then you, you come to Melbourne and you think, well, the jurisdictions are very similar, so it shouldn't be. That difficult to, to requalify. But actually when you get the letter back from, um, the, the legal counsel saying you've got to do five university options and you've gotta do two, um, practical legal training options, that's quite a time commitment.

[00:15:22] And they also give you, um, a specific deadline that you have to get it done by. Okay. What happens after you if you miss that deadline? I don't know, because it's a question you probably don't wanna answer, but, and it's then when you, you, you're sitting there in a full-time job going, this is gonna be really.

[00:15:36] A, an awful lot of work to try and do even just one module and work full time. And if I've gotta do five modules, it's, you know, you're looking at the best part of two years to mm-hmm. To get it done. So it was then kind of taking the decision of going, actually private practice isn't really where I want to, to, to spend my career, so am I better off?

[00:15:55] Stopping that now and, and, and, and just really focusing on getting those modules done in as quickly as I can and then being in a position to actually go on and, and, and get the career I actually, and get the job that I really want. Okay. Um. And it's then also coming back to university a number of years after you've been there the first time that things have moved on and things have changed.

[00:16:14] When I was at university, everybody made lecture notes by hand. And you walk into a lecture theater now and everybody's sitting there with a laptop and, and typing away and you know, you walk into the law library when I was a student and your resources were on the wall. You know, you had to go and get the book and read it.

[00:16:28] And whereas there's an, it's an awful lot more available on, I'm making myself sound like a dinosaur. No, but there's an awful lot more available online and I think that's probably. The advantage of lawyers, this, this generation of lawyers, that they're a lot more tech savvy. They're a lot more, you know, they know where to find resources online, whereas probably even my generation of lawyers are probably not quite as, as, as familiar with that.

[00:16:49] Yeah. So it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's keeping up with. With where you, where you need to be and, and,

[00:16:55] Amy Scarlet: and having that vision, right. Yeah. Um, enabling you to, I guess, see and, and start taking the steps and the processes to get there is really, really important. Mm-hmm. So you touched on briefly that students have more access to technology.

[00:17:12] Let's start talking about the challenges that you think in this day and age that students are facing going forward.

[00:17:19] Olivia Jones: I would say it's probably the finding that first job, I think is gotta be the biggest challenge. And I think it's, it's trying to set yourself apart from all the other law students and, and, and selling yourself to a law firm or to a company or, um, whatever kind of employer you wanna go to.

[00:17:35] Mm-hmm. Um, and I, and I, I think El Alpha's story kind of tells that, tells a good story that sometimes that first job isn't. The job that you want. It isn't in the industry you want, it isn't with the employee you want, but it's, it's good, it's good training and it's good experience and it's then it's a lot easier to find the second job when you've got the first job.

[00:17:51] Mm-hmm. Um, but I would say that's probably the big challenge is, is setting yourself apart mm-hmm. For that first job. Okay. And how do you, how do you think that students can do that? Um, I think it's, it's doing so much more than just your degree, I think. A good degree will get you in the door. But it's what happens once you've, once you've got there, so you know, you, you apply to a law firm for example, and you'll say, well, I've, I've, I've got my Monash law degree.

[00:18:16] And they'll go, well, great, but what else is there to you than, than that? And when, when I was applying for jobs, the, the partners would always say it's, it's the flight, it's the long haul flight. It's can I sit next to this person on a long haul flight? For that, you know, for 14 hours or whatever it'll be, and still feel that I still wanna talk to 'em when I get off the plane that they've got enough to talk to me about that there's enough to them that.

[00:18:38] That, that I can, I can envisage doing that length of journey definitely. And it's, can I send this person off to a client and, and know that they're not going to make a fool of me or make a fool of themselves? So it's, it's, it's trying to set yourself apart and it's trying to find your life outside of your law degree, I think is really what will, will set you apart.

[00:18:55] Amy Scarlet: So through Lowe's life experiences and those qualities that make you a bit more of a rounded, all-rounded Absolutely. Sort of individual. So whether that be extracurricular activities. Any sort of work experience. It doesn't have to be specific to the law. No. Like, great if you can get a placement, uh, we have clinical guarantee within our faculty of law, which is brilliant.

[00:19:13] So students get to do, uh, a one day a week over 12 weeks, uh, with the business organization, uh, and getting that exposure and understanding of what it's like to work in that space. So obviously there's. Two great things to that. One, getting that little, little bit of added element of all roundedness and also, do I wanna work in this space?

[00:19:31] Yeah. And, and understanding that and starting to navigate their way out of that. But, uh, Elva, you were an international student. Yeah. So it would be really interesting to hear about the challenges that you think international students are facing today from studying. Yeah. In Australia? Australia and then wanting to stay on and getting a job.

[00:19:50] And what do you think that you did, uh, obviously you touched on that by being open-minded, but what do you think you did otherwise to help make you most employable to get that job?

[00:19:59] Elva Jung: I think for international law students, the first things has to be very resilient. Because it took me literally one year and looking back, I hope I, and I wish I could have been more resilient at the time because a few times I really deep, quite down.

[00:20:10] Mm-hmm. Not feeling confident to know everything. But I think finding that first job is, um, it's not gonna be easy. And when we accept that's reality. It's kind of better prepared yourself as well. Yeah. But I think one thing with international law students is the language thing. I found that when I was studying, you know, law, um, because law is all about the precision of the language.

[00:20:31] You pick the word you choose, you know, and, um, um, so for a lot of international students, that's the, the biggest challenge in when they are studying law and when they're trying to find the first job, you know, because it's all about communication. However, on the other hand, um, I actually been telling this story to a few other international law students and don't underestimate your other, uh, abilities and capability.

[00:20:52] For example, language. I speak fluent Chinese, Mandarin, Mandarin Chinese. So when I was at law school studying, I thought, oh my God, I wish English my first. I wish English was my native language, but now I'm like, I'm so glad Chinese is my first language. You know? Because you can learn the improve and cultivate English.

[00:21:09] But then on the other hand, you know, Chinese for example or whatever, um. Native language you hold is a very valuable asset. And also make sure you match your, um, say for example you're looking for a law firm or you work, you want to work for a particular industry, make sure you can best utilize your cultural intelligence, your language skill.

[00:21:29] In my case, I think, um, again, very, very fortunate to work in shipping. It's very international and, and also China is being one of the largest exporters. And a lot of cargoes, you know, um, importing or exporting both ways are relating to China. So a lot of matters we deal with, you know, needs require, requires a level of, you know, understanding Chinese.

[00:21:50] That helps me a lot, you know, so what I thought was kind of a disadvantage, for example, at law school now has. Somehow it turns out to be an asset. Mm-hmm. So I think that's quite important for students, needs to be very strategic in, especially for international students. Yeah. And to stand out, I think, as Olivia was saying, how you can distinguish yourself from the o other fellow applicants.

[00:22:11] Brilliant. Yeah. That's

[00:22:12] Amy Scarlet: really good advice. Mm. Just touching on, we're talking a bit about international and going internationally and what that looks like if you want to work as a lawyer. After practicing Australia internationally, uh, part of our law ambassador program, uh, one of our student groups did a, uh, project, which is a website online where you can go and get some insights to eligibility criteria in different countries.

[00:22:37] So I'll put that link up. Uh, attached to this audio recording, which would be really good. So students can have a bit of an understanding as to what challenges or what do they need to prepare themselves for now, uh, if they've got a site or a vision in working in another country and how they can do that.

[00:22:54] So that's great that we touched on that. Um, before we finish up, I would love to have, uh, a hint or a tip or some piece of advice that you would like to give our students.

[00:23:04] Elva Jung: Um, I think for law students and also. Working lawyer. Another thing from my personal experience is wellbeing, self-care. Um, another passion for my, only because I think, you know, have I have, you know, working, sorry.

[00:23:18] Studying as international student and currently working as a lawyer, I do see a lot of students get burnt out. Mm. And at student level, but. Uh, at the same time, students have a different priority from lawyers. You know, lawyers seem to be more aware of the need to self-care, but for students, you know, finishing degree and getting a job is more important.

[00:23:37] And also when you're young you feel okay, I can take on the stress, but a lot of times I think we need to be, um. One step before in our stress level. So if I can give some advice to students, make sure your self-care, um, also take priority on your wellbeing, you know, and do things outside the law, you know, just because law can be very stressful as a subject study.

[00:23:58] And also the nature of, um, the, the law, the case law and everything is very risk averse. And from brain science perspective, you know, almost make our brain more doubly negative because our jobs are about. Looking for risks. So that's why, you know, you might potentially explain why, um, lotions and lawyers have high propensity for stress.

[00:24:17] Mm. So we do need to counter that, you know, with exercise or meditation or whatever. Can, you know, take your mind off just your study and work.

[00:24:26] Amy Scarlet: That is fantastic. Really good point and, and, um, brilliant advice. Thank you, Alva.

[00:24:31] Olivia Jones: Um, I think my advice would be to not kind of hem yourself into too early to, to look for as many different opportunities and to not think I've, I'm, I'm sitting here with my law degree, so my next step is, is working in a law firm.

[00:24:43] There are so many more career opportunities for lawyers, both inside and, and out. Side of the law. So it's, it's looking for those opportunities and, and, and taking the risk, uh, with within reason. Um, but taking the risk and, and, and seeing what else you can do that's not necessarily on the career path that you think you're gonna be on today.

[00:25:01] It's that in 10, 15 years time you've gotta look back and say, oh, well actually taking that opportunity has really led me in a completely different direction. But I'm, I'm really pleased with the direction it's gone in.

[00:25:10] Amy Scarlet: Fantastic. Thank you both again. Really appreciate your time. Um, and yeah, it's been fantastic.

[00:25:16] Thanks. Thank you. Welcome. Thank you. That's Olivia Jones, general counsel and head of strategy at Victoria International Container Terminal and Elva Jung. Corporate counsel at a and l Group, life after Law School comes to you from the faculty of law at Monash University. I'm Amy Scarlet, and I'll see you next time.