Life After Law School | Episode 3 | Hero’s quest
It’s rare for a career path to lay itself out in front of you in a straight line through an open field. Think of yourself as the main character in a story. Your career is a hero’s quest: from a sleepy village, through the forest, across the seas, slaying dragons, climbing mountains, to find the holy grail. Katherine Brabon, law graduate and Vogel Literary Award winning author of 'The Memory Artist', is going to teach you how to write your next chapter. Music: Upbeat Party by Scott Holmes (CC BY NC license) Level 1 by Monplaisir
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Transcript | Life After Law School | Episode 3 | Hero’s quest
[00:00:00] Amy Scarlet: It's rare for a career path to lay itself out in front of you in a straight line through an open field. Instead, it's a hero's quest from a sleepy village through the forest across the seas, slaying dragons, climbing mountains. To find the Holy Grail.
[00:00:30] I am Amy Scarlet. Today on Life After Law School, we're going to take a bit of a literary bent and explore how you can write your next chapter, and we are doing things a bit differently. I'll be joined by two co-host. Rachel Cox and Jonathan Bay, who are career directors within the Monash Law Student Society.
[00:00:57] Catherine Brabin is the author of the Memory Artist, which won the Vogel Literary Award in 2016, but she hasn't always been a writer. Catherine's a law graduate who kind of has done it all, and her career path, like the Hero's Quest, is more of a career adventure. After graduating with a double degree in law and arts, Catherine went on to doing her PLT at Leo cousin, but her love of history took her on another adventure, including going to Oxford where she did her masters in Russian history.
[00:01:32] And it was while she was in England that she started dreaming of a return to Australian shores where an unexpected
[00:01:39] Catherine Brabin: passion was awoken. I started law at 18 and I, you know, I knew I was interested in, you know, the world society history, how things work, a lot of things that ended up feeding into kind of the degree that I did do.
[00:01:52] And so I was finishing up in England and uh, it was really tough to get funding to do a PhD in history over there. So I sort of tried a little halfheartedly, I think, I think I knew I wanted. To come back to Melbourne. And so I, um, started just kind of looking online while I was still in Oxford thinking, you know, literally, what is my next chapter?
[00:02:12] What am I gonna do when I get back? Um. And I found that you could do these PhDs in creative writing, which I had not even heard of. Uh, so I had started doing some writing while I was there in England, some creative writing. I had one short story published, and I, when I, I remember writing that first. Story.
[00:02:30] And I remember thinking, I love doing this. Like this is so much better than writing a history essay. And I just felt like this was what I really wanted to do. What was that called? Uh, it's called Soul Calling. Okay. Um, soul is in the Korean City. Um, it's set in Seoul. Um, but, and it was just because I read this, um.
[00:02:48] Piece in the Economist that got me really interested in the country and started researching about it, which is how, how my writing practice seems to happen, I've noticed. Um, so anyway, I saw that Monash had a mid-year intake for the PhD, uh, with funding. So I thought, oh, okay, I'm gonna apply, apply for that.
[00:03:07] And I had a Skype interview with who would then be my future supervisor, uh, and he agreed to take me on. Um, so the week before I flew back, I found out that I got in, but I also found out that I didn't get funding. Oh. And so I flew back to Melbourne and thought. What do I do? I, I really didn't feel like I could do it without the funding.
[00:03:26] Um, a week later got an email saying, oh, you ready to start? Um, your scholarship starts, you know, next week? And I said, I haven't got a scholarship. And they said, oh, we forgot to tell you that you do have one. Oh. So it was this amazing thing of, okay, I, I came back kind of feeling like I wasn't starting, but then I, I ended up being able to start midyear.
[00:03:43] So it was a nice sort of. Passage way through. So for a PhD in creative writing, you write a creative, um, piece, so a novel or short stories or plays, and then you have to do what's called an exegesis, which is basically a critical study of your own work and also other literary, um, like influences or you have to kind of base it in some kind of theory.
[00:04:04] So. I started writing this novel set in Russia with a lot of all the themes that had interested me that I'd studied during my masters. Kind of a lot about how a culture kind of collectively remembers something. So for example, like a, a big traumatic episode like, um, you know, for example the Stalin years in, in Russia, um, as, you know, part of the communist system, how that was sort of commemorated or memorialized or silenced in, in the, um, sort of.
[00:04:35] Succeeding generations. So I kind of, it was all these sort of themes and really interesting things that was just such good material for fiction for a novel. Uh, and so started writing that, um, while I was, while I was here. At Monash. Um, I'd never even been to Monash before. It's my first time coming out here.
[00:04:52] Um, just when I got off the plane pretty much from, from England and arriving out here. Uh, and then during the degree, uh, during the PhD, uh, I submitted it to a couple of different places that either didn't write back to me or. Rejected the book. Um, but then I submitted it to a unpublished manuscript award called The Vogel Award.
[00:05:12] Uh, and it comes with, um, publication, um, like a, a prize money and some press and that sort of thing. And it ended up winning. Amazing. So it got published during my, during my PhD. So it kind of, yeah, it happened in very unexpected ways.
[00:05:27] Amy Scarlet: That's so exciting. What I thought we'd do is introduce our co-hosts as well.
[00:05:31] That would be brilliant to, I guess, learn who you are and, uh, what you're studying, uh, what year you are in your studies. So, Rachel, we can kick it off with you.
[00:05:41] Rachel: Um, I'm a final year JD student. I'm in my third year or third and a half technically. I, um, did my undergraduate and I'm doing my JD at Monash. My undergraduate was in arts with a major in media and communications.
[00:05:57] Yeah, so I actually graduated high school and decided I wanted to be a translator. I came to Monash because it was the only university that would offer me, uh, the chance to do three languages at once. And so my first year I studied Italian, Spanish, and French and linguistics. Um, one year of that was enough.
[00:06:19] So I, um, took a, a bunch of different, uh, electives, a bunch of different units. I always had an interest in English, so I sort of fell into communications, um, just 'cause I had enough to make them major. Okay. Um, just because, you know, why not add it on there? Okay. I struggled, but I did end up making the major, I, um, fell.
[00:06:45] Yeah. So I fell into some publishing units and decided that I really wanted to go into publishing. Um, I always loved to read, so that seemed to make a lot of sense. Um, and then through that final year, I ended up taking some publishing kind of law media policy. Media and communications law units, which I loved and decided that I would pursue law.
[00:07:11] Amy Scarlet: Awesome. Okay. And that's why you are now doing your jd. That's right. Good choice.
[00:07:17] Rachel: Yeah. I, I love law. I really struggled through my undergrad, but, um. Law's just been so much fun. I really like it. And Jonathan would like to hear a bit
[00:07:26] Amy Scarlet: about your story, please.
[00:07:27] Jonathan: Yeah, so I, um, I'm doing a double degree in the undergrad here, so I do a Bachelor of Commerce and a bachelor of Laws majoring in economics for my.
[00:07:37] Bachelor of Commerce, so in my sixth year now last year as well. So very glad to be finishing up soon. It's been a long time.
[00:07:45] Amy Scarlet: Rachel, I wanna understand a bit about, uh, you, we got your undergrad, that's great. Uh, you're doing your jd fantastic. Uh, now what's next steps? Where is that taking you?
[00:07:54] Rachel: So the next step for me is a graduate role next year.
[00:07:59] Um, which is really exciting.
[00:08:00] Amy Scarlet: Really exciting. Congratulations. I believe those just came out. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. That's so exciting.
[00:08:06] Rachel: Um, so I guess in order to do that, I went through the normal clerkship process mm-hmm. Last year and I did three clerkships, two of a summer and won just recently in winter.
[00:08:19] Okay. Um, and then. Yeah. And then I got the grad offer earlier this week. Wonderful.
[00:08:25] Amy Scarlet: That's so exciting. But you, you did an undergrad, so that was a little bit different, right. And, well, a whole lot different, should I say? Um, it's something led you to being where you are now. I wanna hear that story. Why, you know, how did you get to where you are now and why did you choose this different career pathway?
[00:08:43] What
[00:08:43] Rachel: happened? So, as I said before, I found an interest in media law. And sort of copyright elements and some trademark stuff. In one of my units it was like, pick your own topic. And I wrote about, um, fan fiction and copyright.
[00:09:01] Amy Scarlet: Okay.
[00:09:01] Rachel: So had that interest. Um, and I went along to the careers fair, the law careers fair, and I was like, hi, I'd like to do a postgraduate at intellectual property, please.
[00:09:13] And they said, why would you do that? You can't practice. You are young, you're smart. You should do the jd. Um, but I knew that was a really big thing to jump into, a really expensive, long thing to jump into. So, um, I decided I wanted to get some legal experience first. Um, make sure that I knew I wanted to do law before kind of jumping into the jd, so I applied.
[00:09:38] Everywhere. And I ended up taking a six month contract, full-time contract in the mail room of a mid-size law firm. Um, and I spent every day opening mail and running things up to court. Brilliant. Yeah. Loved it. Um, that's, you know, started from the bottom really, but That's okay. That's great right here.
[00:09:58] Absolutely. Um, yeah, so I did that for six months and then. Uh, my contract finished up and I had deferred my entry into the JD until the third trimester intake, which is about August. My contract finished up in July, and um, the firm was like, no, we really like you. We wanna keep you. And I was like, okay, I'm starting school now.
[00:10:19] So I ended up working there a couple days a week and then doing. Uh, school on the other days.
[00:10:25] Amy Scarlet: Awesome. And were you doing the same sort of work or did they give you an opportunity to do something a little bit different?
[00:10:30] Rachel: Um, no, I moved from the mail room. Okay. So I was quite relieved. I moved into the property law department and I was doing administrative paralegal type.
[00:10:40] Property law work.
[00:10:41] Amy Scarlet: Ah, awesome. Okay. That's really cool. So, um, it sounded like, you know, it was a very strategic move getting into the mail room. It wasn't just, oh, I'll get myself a random job, and then ironically it ends up in a law firm. It sounds like you thought that through, uh, which is really good. You know, you, you took that time to reflect and, um.
[00:11:00] A bit of research, I'm assuming, to think, Hey, what would be the best possible way to get my foot in the door within a law firm? I'm obviously going to do my JD and effectively want to work in that space inevitably, but how can I do that now? So that's really good story to hear how, you know, it might not be the role that you wanna do initially, but you obviously did something right.
[00:11:19] If they said, at the end of your contract, let's keep you on. We want to give you an opportunity within our firm to continue to work while you're studying.
[00:11:26] Rachel: Yeah, I was really fortunate because I know how hard it is. To get a job in the legal industry, especially as a student, especially if you're looking for part-time hours.
[00:11:36] Mm-hmm. Um, so I, I feel that taking, deciding to defer and really taking on the full-time and then being able to transition was. Like a really good choice. And
[00:11:45] Catherine Brabin: it sounds like a smart decision, but also a hard one for people to make because you probably have feel that urgency of, oh, I just need to start, I just need to, you know, get into the, the course or just get it started.
[00:11:55] But to kind of take that decision is quite smart, I guess.
[00:11:58] Rachel: Yeah, it was for, for the first three months, it was great. It was all new. I was learning a lot. And then after that I was like, I really just, I'm really keen to start my degree. It was a bit tough, especially I had a. Friend who started, would've started the JD with me if I had started at the start of the year.
[00:12:14] Um, and then watching her and listening to all her stories, that would be hard. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so it was a difficult decision. But, um, I had another friend who was doing the undergrad who took a year off between finishing high school and starting. Um, his law degree, his undergraduate law degree, um, and he worked for a barrister and I just saw the doors that had opened for him.
[00:12:34] Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And he's, again, similar to me, stayed on, you know, part-time or a few days a week. Awesome. While he was doing his law degree. And I was like, that's what I want. That's great. I need a foot in the door. So. Mm. Oh. Um, and I think journo, you went through the clerkship process as well. Very similar to.
[00:12:49] What I did.
[00:12:49] Jonathan: Yeah, that's right. Um, I was nowhere near as thoughtful as you were. So coming in and doing a double degree, I guess I just sort of didn't really know what I wanted to do at the end of my degree. Um, so at the very start, I probably looked a bit more at the commerce side of things. So I did um, vacation scheme in consulting.
[00:13:08] I did some public policy. Uh, absolutely loved it and thought that's probably where I want to go. And then I just, um, I guess stumbled onto, um, a part-time paralegal position. Started doing that. Uh, and then I, I really loved that as well. So I think for me, it's, I don't see myself doing a particular, um. Path for too long.
[00:13:32] It's just, let's see how it goes. Do a few years in this and and see how I feel.
[00:13:37] Amy Scarlet: Yeah, that's good. So you're keeping your opportunities open, you're keeping your mind open to what can come next. But you know, the great thing is you've got your next chapter set out for you. You've worked really hard to get that.
[00:13:48] You did the clerkship. Process yourself. Is that right? The three, yeah, that's right.
[00:13:52] Jonathan: So the same as Rachel did two over the summer. One in winter.
[00:13:54] Amy Scarlet: Okay. Yeah. Just to give us a bit of, um, an understanding as to what they are. It'd be good just to flesh that out a little bit more. So how, how many weeks at each placement roughly.
[00:14:04] Jonathan: Yeah. So between three and a half to four weeks. Okay. Um, so very short. It's a condensed period where you just spend your time at the firm, you get to do some of the work there, meet the people, see if you fit in, um, if you like the feel of the place.
[00:14:17] Amy Scarlet: Yeah. And did you notice there was quite a big difference between the three that you, you worked with?
[00:14:23] Jonathan: Oh, I. Did it at pretty similar firms. Um, I think Rachel did it at some more different firms, so she'd probably be able to speak more to it, but Okay. I think even though they are similar, you know, you meet different people, um, they've got different ways of working, so there are some, um, similarities and also differences.
[00:14:39] Amy Scarlet: It's a good point to bring out in that is, you know, it's a good, if you get an opportunity to work in a firm or work in any sort of industry that you're interested in, it's good to go there to actually see it for yourself and say, Hey, is this where I want to take my career post my graduation? So a graduate role, so.
[00:14:55] I know that you did three, um, both Rachel and Jonathan, which means that at the end of the day, you know, you get offers put on the table and if you're getting multiple offers, um, it's really good that you can make that decision be actively because you actually were there and you got to see it. Whereas if you hadn't done any, you know, you might be stressing out that you're coming to the NDU degree and now I dunno what I'm doing and now I dunno where I'm working.
[00:15:17] Which again, is completely fine. If you're in that situation, there's a lot of people in that position where, you know, even if they did do the three placements, they might say, Hey, this is not. Actually what I want to do. Uh, and there is a whole world out there and that is what Catherine is about to talk to us about is the next chapter in her life and where you are going.
[00:15:36] Catherine Brabin: Yeah. Okay. Um, it's been really nice to hear on these perspectives as well. 'cause I think it's a good thing for me to mention first is that, um, yeah, a lot of the people around me were like really intent on being lawyers and that was kind of really nice to see as well. So a lot of my friends did the. Leo Customs as well, um, like I did, and then had that difficulty of applying for jobs after.
[00:15:57] And a lot of them had a lot of trouble. So I think they, some of them did the, um, the clerkships. Um, some didn't, some worked sort of part-time, that sort of thing, but at the end of the day they all kind of got the, got a job eventually and they were really kind of persistent with it. Um, and they're now like senior associates and barristers and that sort of thing.
[00:16:16] Um, so it's nice to sort of see that around. Around me. Um, but yeah, for me now, uh, things are, um, changing again for the, for the, uh, rest of the year. I've been working on a second novel for the last few years, uh, and it's been a little bit of a, I guess, a challenge in terms of finishing the PhD and wanting to.
[00:16:36] Trying to find some balance between having a job, um, you know, having a job that's stimulating that I enjoy, um, like I do here, but also finding time to write. Yeah. And I think that's something that every writer struggles with or any person who's trying to do something. Um, you know, you. Creative. It's sort of, it's um, not something that necessarily pays the bills.
[00:16:55] You don't do it for those reasons. Uh, so I've got a good structure here now where I work three days a week here in the law library. Okay. Two days a week. Um, writing, I do a little bit of freelance writing as well. Um, some, um, copywriting and that sort of thing.
[00:17:10] Amy Scarlet: Could I ask how you navigated your way?
[00:17:12] Around all those three elements, so
[00:17:14] Catherine Brabin: yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, so it sort of sounds, I guess when I'm just listing how things happen and I think, um, when we hear anything of any anybody's trajectory, it sounds like, oh, things just happen for you at the right time. But there is a lot of uncertainty a lot of the time, um, as to kind of, you know.
[00:17:32] Would I be able to find the right job after the PhD? Would I have to kind of leave riding behind for a while because I had to work full time, that sort of thing. Um, so the, um, the Monash job was one that I just saw advertised online and I thought, oh, well this is kind of maybe a nice return to. To law in a sense.
[00:17:50] 'cause I'd worked at Monash as a tutor, as a teaching associate in creative writing. So I had the teaching experience and the law degree and I thought, oh, well I've never been a learning schools advisor, but I thought I'd apply for it or ever heard of it. Yeah. Yeah, it's, that's right. Um. Uh, reflecting before that, um, my dad said to me years ago, I think when I was in high school, that you may not even know the name of the job that you'll do.
[00:18:14] Um, because, you know, there's so many roles, you know, that we haven't heard of my parents, you know, teacher, nurse, like you just, you know, those kinds of roles. But something like a learning schools advisor I didn't know existed. Uh, so I applied for it. Um, and another Good Life lesson. I guess I didn't get it the first time around.
[00:18:29] Um. But the manager said that she thought I interviewed really well, um, that she would keep me in mind in future. So I had a few months of just sort of, um, continuing the tutoring and then she called me, um, saying that they needed somebody, 'cause somebody else had, um, had moved on. Oh yeah. So, yeah. So that worked out really nicely.
[00:18:46] And then, um, so copywriting is. You know, you're writing the, um, creative content for different brands. And so I just, um, yeah, was fortunate that, um, my partner has a business who needs a copywriter who then knew, knew a, knew a company who needed a copywriter and that sort of thing. So it's really been a, a word of mouth.
[00:19:04] Thing. Um, but then I also speak at literary festivals on panels and things. Um, judge short story competitions for schools or awards. Um, I judge the Victorian Premier's literary award for unpublished manuscript a few years ago. Um, stuff like that. Um, all these little things just kind of eventually come, but you would never know that they're out there really.
[00:19:26] And it's sort of, there's in between these great things. There's also a lot of doubt, I guess. Um. And so I've, um, coming back to what my, um, next chapter is, I, I knew that I, to get this second novel done, I just needed a, some time to be immersed in it completely. It was very hard, um, because I seemed to just not say no to things and just accept these, um, these opportunities, which are all really great opportunities.
[00:19:49] I wasn't getting Lee. You know, the hours that it needs just to sit in front of, uh, a manuscript and sometimes not really work productively, but just be with it. And I kind of realized that I, I was very fortunate to have that during the PhD 'cause that was a thing I had to be working on, essentially full time.
[00:20:06] Whereas now I just wasn't getting that time. So I started applying for writing residencies, which is sort of like an artist residency where you go, um, some are in Australia, some are overseas. Um, you can get. Sort of anywhere from three weeks to six months in a location to work. And so. I applied for a lot.
[00:20:26] 'cause I thought, well, they, they're very competitive. Um, particularly ones that, um, you know, fund you for, for all or part of it. Um, so I applied for, um, probably 15 or more, um, and ended up getting, um, two really great ones that I'm gonna, that I've decided I'm going to go do. So the first one is, um, a month in Switzerland in this.
[00:20:47] Beautiful house that was owned by a, a German publisher. He published like Hemingway and Nabokov, all of the big names. Um, and this was just to one of his houses. And then they've donated it to writers. So five or six writers at a time just live there. Um, you don't have to. See or talk to anyone during the day.
[00:21:07] If you don't want to, you just work. And then in the evenings you come together and you know, chat about how well or not the writing's gone.
[00:21:14] Amy Scarlet: That sounds so amazing. I didn't even know that that was another, they're an amazing
[00:21:19] Catherine Brabin: thing. Yeah, they rely on a lot on generous donors or funding from government bodies or somewhere.
[00:21:25] Speaker 3: Yeah, because
[00:21:25] Catherine Brabin: the idea is that most writers, you know, wouldn't have the money to go and just live somewhere for a month, you know? Exactly. And not, not have to pay rent and that sort of thing. So I'm very, yeah, very them. How did you find them? Them, or
[00:21:35] Amy Scarlet: what, what made you start looking for them?
[00:21:37] Catherine Brabin: Um, I'd heard of them.
[00:21:38] I'd heard of other writers who had done them. Uh, I guess you get to know writers, you know, um. By going to festivals or even just sort of a lot of kind of online groups and things, and people will post, oh, you know, there's this great opportunity here. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then I just sort of started looking well, I thought, oh, I love to, you know, I love to travel, love to be overseas.
[00:21:58] So I thought I'd look for ones overseas. Uh, and then, yeah, it was just a lot of research online to find the ones that, you know, would work time-wise for me. And, um, you have to do an application with. You have to have references, you have to have writing samples. It's quite a big process to, to apply for them.
[00:22:14] It can probably feel like clerkship applications would, where you just can't, it feels like another subject at uni or another job. Um, but it's, yeah, it's really paid off. And the second one is in upstate New York for about three and a half weeks. Um. Very cool. Yeah. Towards the end of the year, so hopefully by the end of the year I will have, uh, a new, new novel that's sort of ready to go, um, to, to publishers.
[00:22:36] That's
[00:22:36] Amy Scarlet: brilliant. And it sounds like. You know, while you've been navigating your way through to where you're going in your next chapter, you've really immersed yourself in the community of writing or where you've got this strong passion of
[00:22:51] Catherine Brabin: Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, no. It's very, it's very true. I think, um, I think definitely immersing yourself, even if you're not quite sure you know, what it is that you want to do.
[00:23:00] Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Throughout my, um, undergrad law degree, I knew I was. Very interested in kind of, I guess a lot of law is a lot of kind of history and a lot of how it kind of, you know, can go right or wrong and, you know, looking at something like, um, yeah, Russia, for example. Um, and. I think learning the kind of political history of things.
[00:23:24] I think a lot of people who study law are also very interested in politics and how kind of society operates, what can, how things can break down as well. But how those things can actually happen through, uh, legal means. Um, legal, I say that in inverted commas. I remember we looked in constitutional law at, um, Hitler's constitutional changes and what the National Socialist Party did, um, to kind of technically make what they did legal by law.
[00:23:50] And it just brings in so many interesting questions. So I think, um, about kind of, you know, what, what is, you know. Law and how it can impact on, on people's lives. And um, I think a lot of those themes, yeah, they were always brewing. So I guess if you are, you know, if you're finding that interesting, but not finding that you think you could see yourself, you know, day to day in a law firm.
[00:24:12] There's just so many things you can do with a law degree. I think they look, you know, being, having a law degree kind of, you can, it opens up I think a lot of pathways. I like what you were saying, Jonathan, about kind of seeing your career and perhaps sort of, you know, stages or chapters in terms of, you know, you're interested in this one area for now and you've got that job, but then you've got the commerce interest as well.
[00:24:32] And Yeah, I would sort of as a, like a, a bit of advice, I guess not seeing kind of. If you choose one path, it doesn't necessarily close off others. It's sort of, you can do, we're of that generation, I guess now where you, well, it's very rare that, you know, like my parents, you'd be in the one role for 30 years.
[00:24:51] That's just very, very rare now. So there's so many opportunities and to be. Yeah, young and have like the opportunity to do, you know, even five years in one firm and then go work in government or you know, move around, go move into policy, move overseas. There's just so many things you can do. Um, and it's not, it doesn't always have to go the way, it probably won't go the way you expect it to, I think.
[00:25:14] Yeah, I think that's the thing that's coming out from here, which is kind of, kind of nice and yeah, it's refreshing to hear. Absolutely. And Rachel, you seem like you've got,
[00:25:22] Rachel: yeah, I want here. Well, I was wondering what advice you'd have for that student who. Is doing a law degree, but is not really sure if they wanna practice and not really sure what next year looks like.
[00:25:33] Catherine Brabin: Yeah, yeah. It's a really good question because I, throughout the law degree, when I looked at my friends who were really, really keen to practice and I, I felt like, well, is there any point in me being here for five or six years if I'm not super passionate about practicing? Uh, but I, I guess because I wasn't completely sure what I wanted to do, I decided to, you know.
[00:25:53] To keep doing it because I was enjoying it. And I think if you find that you are, you know, still enjoying it in kind of a non-specific way, I think that's fine. 'cause I think there's something really positive about the, the university process in general in terms of, you know, you hopefully by the end of it you will, you know, learn to be more.
[00:26:14] Critical thinker and a creative thinker and know more what you want to do. And I think something like your path, Rachel, is really great. 'cause you kind of, you couldn't have got to where you are now from day one, even in a sense you kind of had to go through that process. Um, so I'd say kind of the, the, the doubt and not being quite sure is totally fine and just kind of.
[00:26:35] Think about what you're genuinely interested in or what kind of makes you excited, what doesn't necessarily feel like a chore to have to do. Um, you know, what things that you kind of gravitate to, like to read. Um, you know, what electives you find yourself moving towards. Um, but also don't, if, if you kind of think, oh, I really, you know, I really liked doing, you know, property, for example.
[00:26:57] I think maybe I'll try and go down that way, but then in practice, if it looks different, then that's totally fine too, because. Things are very different from the books to actually getting into that environment. So there's so much scope to, to move and change, I suppose. Uh, and yeah, I guess my like, takeaway thing is that I definitely didn't see myself here 10, 10, 15 years ago.
[00:27:19] Uh, so I think be prepared for. Uncertainty because you can be, yeah, you can be surprised. Um, what will happen. That is
[00:27:28] Amy Scarlet: brilliant. Uh, I would love to, uh, before we finish up here, just one piece of, I guess a hint or a tip from both Rachel and Jonathan as final year law students and your next chapter Yeah.
[00:27:42] Is your graduate role, um, would be brilliant to hear.
[00:27:44] Jonathan: I think for me, um, just get as much experience as you can in, in whatever, it doesn't have to be related to where you want to go. Um. So, for example, uh, I did an internship at a public policy place and it was just looking at congestion in Melbourne and Sydney.
[00:28:00] Mm-hmm. Uh, so what it looks like, how bad it is, uh, where in the cities it is, uh, it was just a fascinating project to be working on and something that people really took an interest in when I was applying the clerkships. And that was probably the thing they asked me most about. It was nothing about the law, uh, just my experiences, even if it was outside commercial law.
[00:28:21] So I think. Whatever you have, whatever you can bring to the table, it's all really useful. Um, so any experience you can get is, is really good.
[00:28:28] Amy Scarlet: That's
[00:28:28] Rachel: brilliant. That's really good advice, Jonathan. Thank you. Um, I think my advice would be take advantage of what people offer you. Um, I had a rule for a while, which was if I was given a business card, I had to follow up my.
[00:28:44] I expressed an interest in media law to my public law teacher who happened to be married to someone who was, um, counsel at a uh, media company. Wow. And I ended up paralegal there working on a TV show for four, five weeks. That's so, um, doing some licensing for the TV show and it was all just because, you know, I chatted with my public law teacher, expressed an interest, she brought in his business card and I followed up.
[00:29:11] Amy Scarlet: That is so follow up is my
[00:29:12] Rachel: advice.
[00:29:13] Amy Scarlet: Wow. I love it. Thank you. And thank you very much, Catherine, for bringing your insights. And you know what's happening in your next chapter. I wish you all the very best with writing your book and your travel, so thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's been lovely.
[00:29:28] No worries. And thank you again, Rachel and Jonathan for being my co-host. You've both been brilliant. Thanks so much Rachel. Thanks so much for having me. And thanks.
[00:29:38] Jonathan: Thank you for having us. Cheers.
[00:29:41] Amy Scarlet: Life after Law School comes to you from the faculty of Lauren Monash University. I'm Amy Scarlet. See you next time.