Life After Law School | Episode 4 | Young lawyers are best placed to thrive in this environment
How will the legal system adapt to the challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic? What will this mean for law students? On today’s podcast you’ll meet Rose Inglis from the Law Institute of Victoria. Rose will discuss how law students can use this time to start planning for the new legal landscape that will emerge. Music: Upbeat Party by Scott Holmes (CC BY NC license)
Explore more Monash Law podcasts
Transcript | Life After Law School | Episode 4 | Young lawyers are best placed to thrive in this environment
[00:00:00] Amy Scarlet: Hi, I'm Amy Scarlet. This is Life After Law School.
[00:00:07] On this podcast, I want to help you see all the exciting career paths that your law degree can unlock by meeting all sorts of law grads who are doing a range of cool things in their careers. So far, we've met law grads who are consultants working online security and even met an award-winning author.
[00:00:27] Thanks to our listeners who have tuned in so far. And if you're new to the podcast, welcome. We are living in unprecedented times. In these uncertain times, I want to help you find some certainty. You might feel like there's a lot outside of your control, so life after law school is here to help you start to take some real solid first steps towards your dream career.
[00:00:53] This episode of Life After Law School is going to be our first episode recorded remotely. On today's podcast, we're fortunate enough to have Rose Inglis. From the Law Institute of Victoria as our guest Rose, will take us through how the legal system is adapting to the challenges of the pandemic, some tips for how you can start planning for the new legal landscape, and we'll also hear a bit about Rose's own career journey.
[00:01:23] Thank you Rose for being with us today and a warm welcome to this podcast.
[00:01:27] Rose Inglis: Thank you, Amy. I'm really happy to be here.
[00:01:30] Amy Scarlet: Look, so before we jump into it, so many of us have had to move to working remotely. How's working remotely going for you?
[00:01:37] Rose Inglis: I'm actually a adapting to it quite well. I've been working remotely and working in virtual teams probably for about the last four or five years of my career.
[00:01:50] So I moved to London in 2014 and my first job, uh, my first proper job there, I was working in a team spread across Australia and London. And from there, every role I had, it was working, um, you know, on across different jurisdictions, time zones, everything. So it's been quite easy for me to adapt and I really enjoy it.
[00:02:19] There are challenges, but I think overall. It's a great way of working. Yeah. And you, and you can still maintain those, um, like that, that human connection, um, with your colleagues and your peers just in a bit of a different way.
[00:02:34] Amy Scarlet: We're doing it right now. You know, indeed we're communicating as we would if we were sitting opposite one another at a desk.
[00:02:40] Uh, what exactly is LIV and why should students know about it?
[00:02:46] Rose Inglis: Sure. So the Law Institute of Victoria is the professional body for lawyers. Um, in the state, we, our vision is to partner with members throughout their careers, so their best place to deliver outcomes for and on behalf of the, um, community and their clients, um, and our purpose, or we exist.
[00:03:08] To be the trusted voice of members respected for delivering value to members while driving excellence in the profession and steadfast in safeguarding the rule of law on behalf of the community. So what does all of that mean? Basically, the, um, LIV supports lawyers to, um. B, the best lawyers that they can possibly be.
[00:03:33] We do this in a range of ways. Um, we deliver resources and support to, um, our members. So, um, later law students or law students later on in their degree, um, might have read about the, um, ethics advisory service that we, um, provide the profession. Um, we do a lot of learning and education. We, um, we, the, we're the main CPD provider.
[00:04:00] Um, we do a lot of I and, um, um. Influential and persuasive voice on matters of law reform. So we collaborate very, very closely with the Attorney General, um, uh, regularly making submissions to Parliament and the Law Council of Australia. Um, and, uh, we're always in close collaboration with the, um, the, the Victorian Legal Services Board Commissioner as well.
[00:04:31] Um, we promote the value of our members. So just generally we kind of educate, um, the community more broadly and advocate for using lawyers for, to do legal work as opposed to say a convey, um. A property transaction. And, um, the final one, which is my favorite, um, and what I'm entirely dedicated to in my role as um, manager for young Lawyers is to connect a community of peers.
[00:05:01] We do this through, um, providing events and professional development opportunities. We've got, um, eight different committees and networks made up of young lawyers. All different stages of their careers. Um, and they're focused, um, around activities such as, um, the social committee, editorial committee, community issues and law reform, professional development, the later Lawyers Network and the regional and suburban, um, young Lawyers Network.
[00:05:34] So we do a lot. Yeah. Sounds it.
[00:05:39] Amy Scarlet: Huge amount. That was extremely comprehensible. I was, uh, comprehensive. Should I say? Sorry. I was, uh, thinking we were saying that out loud. My gosh. I I don't have any further questions. We can, uh, wrap this up.
[00:05:53] Rose Inglis: So Good. In total, the, the LI has 19,000 members and 8,000 of them are active young lawyer members.
[00:06:00] So, yeah, it's, it's a lot, but it's fun and it keeps me busy. Fantastic.
[00:06:06] Amy Scarlet: Um, in light of the current situation of what's going on with the world, with COVID-19, how do you see COVID impacting on the legal profession?
[00:06:16] Rose Inglis: Um, that's a great question and probably the million dollar question. I think it's been really interesting because the resilience and agility and adaptability of the legal industry has.
[00:06:31] Really being forced to innovate and change very, very quickly. I think at the beginning of the year, if you said, if you envisage that all law firms, courts, uh, or many courts, um, and a lot of like the legal industry would transition to working remotely. Um, and all of the kind of relationship management, um, that's integral for either the legal industry, um, would be moved to like virtual collaboration and virtual teamwork and, um, yeah.
[00:07:07] You know, virtual meeting, greeting, mentoring, everything. Um, I don't know of he would, would've had faith in the kind of resilience. To transition as quickly as possible. Um, in saying that, I do think that, um, it's will quickly become apparent those types of, um, firms and workplaces that are best equipped to handle this change.
[00:07:34] So, and I think a lot of what we've been seeing happening in the new law space is quickly gonna become the norm.
[00:07:42] Amy Scarlet: Yeah. So,
[00:07:43] Rose Inglis: um, with more innovative working practices, um, you know, a, a move to using online or virtual forms of practice management and teamwork and communications with clients and all of that.
[00:07:59] And, and also there, there's, um, there will be a move. A demand driven by clients for fixed fees from their lawyers. So, okay. The first thing that comes
[00:08:08] Amy Scarlet: to my mind as well is a lot less paper. So Yes.
[00:08:13] Rose Inglis: And, and young lawyers are really best placed to thrive and stand out in this type of environment. Yeah.
[00:08:18] Which I think is a huge opportunity.
[00:08:20] Amy Scarlet: This is life after law school, so we do focus a lot on careers in this podcast, and there are a lot of students. Feeling uncertain about their future legal career right now. So with COVID-19 and the economic situation in mind. Is it so dire or are there some opportunities here?
[00:08:40] What's, what's your take on that?
[00:08:42] Rose Inglis: I always like to see the good in every situation and make the most of, um, every opportunities. Um, so I think that there are a lot of opportunities out there. I think in light of the, um. Kind of uncertainty and the, um, kind of the shock of new, uh, work, work, uh, practices, which is like working remotely.
[00:09:04] I think actually law students are incredibly well placed to, um, thrive in that environment because. Studying is actually a pretty solitary endeavor. So they're actually quite well placed to work independently and, um, produce good quality work because they're kind of used to doing that already from the university studies.
[00:09:26] Uh, it might probably mean that people will have to be, there might be like less opportunities in a conventional sense. In like say, reception work or legal administration or whatever. But, um, other opportunities will certainly arise. Okay. And, um, you know, there are all sorts of legal tech startups that will be looking for law students who can thrive in this environment.
[00:09:51] Likewise, the law firms, I don't think that there's going to be an entirely, you know, a, a huge like drought of, of roles. At all law firms, of course, some of them will, but, um, there are still opportunities there because the legal industry is still continuing. So, and it's still just as important to focus on, like building your skills and experience in this time.
[00:10:17] Absolutely. Um, as it is at all. So you can, you can stand out when you do go for that role.
[00:10:22] Amy Scarlet: Yeah, exactly. And I think it's being active where you can be active. Um, you know, considering sometimes we feel a bit like reactive at the moment, but uh, there's still opportunity for you to grow as an individual and, uh, putting in place those certain, I guess.
[00:10:37] You know, working on those skills that you feel that you're going to need when it does come time to going through the application process and interviewing and, and, um, and even, you know, all the way through to actually working. So, uh, whether that be
[00:10:49] Rose Inglis: Absolutely, and it might involve, um, a readjust a readjustment of your plans or your expectations that you had, like you might have had the intention of doing a clinical placement at a community legal center, which has been.
[00:11:05] Canceled or postponed. However, with that extra time, you can still do things to build your skills and experience. So one thing I always, um, recommend to young lawyers who are trying to build their cvs is write, write and get your work published and get it published anywhere. It could be on a Monash.
[00:11:25] Publication, it could be through the, um, through an lss. It could be through the, the, the Law Institute, through the Young Lawyers Journal or blog, or it could be in a academic journal or on a, um, a kind of a special interest blog or something like the Legal Forecast. But that is a really excellent way to dev get you, get your, develop expertise in an area.
[00:11:51] Yeah. Get your name out there and potentially get a new, um. Kind of section on your cv, which is a publication section. And if I was looking at a, um, a CV and I saw that this person had, um, you know, written or published. Three different articles on either the same area of law or the same kind of area of interest.
[00:12:17] And that's a really amazing way to, um, kind of quickly, um, verify that person's interest. Yes. And expertise and dedication to their own professional development, but applying themselves in a particular area.
[00:12:33] Amy Scarlet: So how is the LIV adapting to things during this pandemic? So, has anything changed? And if so, you know, how does that affect students and the various, um, legal organizations and sectors?
[00:12:46] A whole,
[00:12:47] Rose Inglis: that's a big question. So in short, the LIV has been, um, adapting, um, to the pandemic very, very quickly, and I think very, very well. Um, and it's in, it's affecting the, um, our different stakeholders in very different ways. So kind of at a profession wide, more senior level, we quickly, um, put together a COVID-19 practice support hub.
[00:13:14] Where we put all our information about how to, you know, adapt the law firms and everything like that. Um, and we also run regular q and a sessions with our members, which have been getting, um, up to over 300 people a session for law students and young lawyers. We had a very, uh, robust schedule of face-to-face events planned, which, um, I intended to broadcast to our regional and suburban, um, colleagues as well.
[00:13:43] But that has obviously all had to shift. So within the last month, we've um, put together a new webinar series, which is going to. Kick off on Thursday, the 23rd of April. And this is just an opportunity where we hope to connect young lawyers and just spark their interest in thinking about the law a bit differently and giving them skills and support to help them thrive throughout this uncertain situation that we find them.
[00:14:11] So we've got some exciting things lined up. So the first one is all about how to create that human connection virtually. Physically distant, but professionally close. How young lawyers can thrive in an online, uh, in a virtual working world. And I've got, um, one of my dear friends, Erica Ano, who is um, has over eight years experience leading teams and teaching virtually, um, with.
[00:14:40] Students all over the world. So that's gonna be a real privilege. Um, and the second one we've got is Sean and Phoebe from Survivor All Stars who are gonna be, um, sharing the lessons learned that they, um, in the jungle about managing stress and, uh, resilience and team building and how that, that's so cool.
[00:15:02] They can, how they can apply that to their, their legal practice. That's awesome. And we've got, we've got workshops on how to find career happiness. So we're using this time as a opportunity to kind of experiment with different ideas, different forms of delivery, different ways connecting our, with our members.
[00:15:22] Um, but we hope it's gonna be a, a success and our members will really enjoy being a part of it.
[00:15:28] Amy Scarlet: So you have to be a member to be involved in those programs, obviously. Um, yes. But it's free for law students to join the LIB. Good to know. So what are some hints and tips that you have for students who are wanting to take action now?
[00:15:41] For their career pathway while they're studying.
[00:15:44] Rose Inglis: Don't put too much pressure on yourself, first of all, to know exactly what you want early on. I don't think it's realistic. I mean some people do are very fortunate to have that very, very clear direction about, about the direction they want their career.
[00:15:58] To take, but don't put pressure on yourself and don't stress your out yourself out if you're not in that boat. But what it's important to do is start to think critically about what it's that you like about studying law and what interests you about the industry. So you might think, okay, I've loved criminal law.
[00:16:20] If you love criminal law, if you love studying criminal law, then the next thing you need to do is start thinking about how you can build your skills and experience and network in that area. So you might start investigating what, what does a career at the OPP look like or, um, for a government department who does prosecutions, or would you prefer to work for a criminal defense firm or in white collar crime?
[00:16:44] And start seeking out volunteer or paid positions that will allow you to develop that kind of insight into that particular area of law. You might find you love it. You might find it's actually not for you. If you're starting to think critically about what you love about the law and what's attracted you to the law.
[00:17:04] Then that can help you, um, kind of interrogate what, where you should be focusing your attention. And then once you've kind of figured out what you're interested in or what, where you would like, what kind of avenue you'd like to pursue, you can start to act strategically. So. You might think, okay, I wanna work internationally when I'm like two or three years qualified.
[00:17:28] What can you be doing now while you're at university to put yourself in the best place, uh, to, to do that, you can start going to events, industry events by special interest groups like the North American Lawyers Alliance. Or you could take subjects in international law or international relations, uh, you can be involved in, um, NGOs or workplaces that are related to global issues.
[00:17:58] So you're starting to expose yourself to that part of the legal industry.
[00:18:03] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[00:18:03] Rose Inglis: Um, and you're building your skills and experience in that area. Awesome.
[00:18:08] Amy Scarlet: Well, it would be fantastic to learn, uh, more about you, rose. So, uh, I would love to hear a bit about your career journey, where it started off. So I guess talking a bit about, uh, what you studied, um, and, you know, what inspired you while you were studying, uh, career-wise and, and uh, and kind of that overall how it got to you to where you are.
[00:18:32] Rose Inglis: I studied, uh, law arts at Latrobe and I graduated in 2011. I did a lot of work experience while I was at university, so I'm very curious, um, person who loves to seek out new opportunities. So I did everything. I was involved in the law student society. I was, I did a lot of volunteer work. I worked at law firms, and I did some clerkships as well.
[00:18:59] I joined the Transport Accident Commission, um, as a legal trainee. Um, and I qualified to practice in February, 2013. I really enjoyed that. Um, it was a, it was interesting because I didn't. I wasn't, um, within a typical law firm environment, I had a lot of flexibility and autonomy and trust in me, placed in me very, very early on in my career.
[00:19:24] And that really, really suited me because I was able to, um, appear in directions, hearings in the magistrates court when I was a graduate and first year lawyer. Um, and I would go to settlement conferences with my client. Unsupervised or, you know, I would be running them. Um, I wouldn't have someone running it on behalf.
[00:19:45] Uh, so that was really, um, good because it made me very, um, super organized and, um, pretty articulate and I guess good at advocacy very early on. And they're all qualities that have really, um, served me well. After only like less than just under a year and a half of, um, post qualification experience, I had itchy feet.
[00:20:11] Um, I wanted international experience. I wanted to travel more. I, um, wanted to continue to accelerate my career, um, and so I moved to London, quit my job, moved to London with my best friend, one suitcase. In, um, May, 2014 through Caution to the Wind, probably too much and moved to London. Amazing. Look, it's definitely not, um, career advice that you'd ever get from, um, anyone who's had a conventional legal career or your, um, university careers advisor.
[00:20:46] That's the whole point of this
[00:20:47] Amy Scarlet: podcast though. We, uh, exactly. Talk about that.
[00:20:51] Rose Inglis: Exactly. I always tell my mentors, I'm like, this is. I'll give you the advice that you won't get from those people. Yes. Um, and it suits some people. Other people probably think it's, I'm a bit nuts, which is probably true as well.
[00:21:03] So I got to London completely underestimated how, um, competitive the market was, how underqualified I was, um, and um. After a couple of months of paralegal, I wasn't really, um, that inspired. Um, so I started, I started reaching out to the very few lawyers I knew, or legal contacts I, I had overseas. Um, and one of them was a.
[00:21:32] A guy that I had worked with at SLA and Gordon while I was at university, we always got along really well and he'd also moved over to join the International Group Litigation Department. Um, and he was in need of a paralegal, so he, he, uh, recommended me for the role, was a one month paralegal contract. I had a quick interview with HR and then I joined the following Monday.
[00:21:58] So, um, within that time, I. I just thought this my time, I.
[00:22:12] I was able to convert that initial foot in the door, um, to a promotion, to a foreign qualified solicitor. Um, and I stayed there for almost two years. Yeah. I don't know if it was luck or, um, I believe you create your own luck in situations like this.
[00:22:29] Amy Scarlet: It goes back to all those fundamentals as a lot of people say networks, you know, that network was someone that you used to know back in Australia and mm-hmm.
[00:22:38] In touch with, you know, it was. You trying a couple of different things and realizing that wasn't necessarily for you. It was you taking that leap of faith and going over to exactly, you know, London. Like as much as it is, I guess, you know, luck in a sense. Um, you also put yourself in those positions and you gave yourself as many opportunities as you could, which led you to getting that role.
[00:23:02] So
[00:23:03] Rose Inglis: Absolutely. The thing is, when I was. At university or, you know, up until very recently, I've never been a good, I, I'd never consider myself a good networker per se. I'm not good at small talk. Mm-hmm. I, um, am not good in like, kind of contrived networking environments. I feel very uncomfortable. I'm an introvert by nature, which a lot of people are surprised about, but it doesn't come easily.
[00:23:28] But what I'm good at is, um, creating really good, uh, finding those people that I click with.
[00:23:36] Speaker 3: In
[00:23:36] Rose Inglis: terms of sharing similar values and attitudes and ambitions and, um, things like that. And, um, you know, basing my, um, professional relationships on those things. And it's served me well so far. So
[00:23:51] Amy Scarlet: how did you get from there to the LIV
[00:23:55] Rose Inglis: I've had a very, um, alternative legal career path.
[00:23:58] Great, great. Um, so when I was in London, I, um, found myself at a, a natural career break because I was, um, at, at Slater and Gordon during a very difficult period of its, um, history.
[00:24:12] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:12] Rose Inglis: Um, and I'd also always, um, aspired to do a master's in law.
[00:24:19] Speaker 3: Um,
[00:24:19] Rose Inglis: I've always been kind of, I come from a family of academics and I really like being at universities and I like studying, so I like to just learn interesting things.
[00:24:28] Um, so I applied and um, did a master's of law and again, I didn't do that for the typical reasons. I wasn't wanting to specialize in a particular area of law. Like a competition law or something. It was more to, um, expand my horizons as to where my legal career could take me. And being in London really at the, like, the center of the world in so many senses, um, and having access to like a truly international, um, studying, um, experience was, um, the right thing for me to do Then.
[00:25:06] So I did that and I, um. Participated in a program called Law Without Walls, which is a global legal education program, um, which teaches students about, um, entrepreneurial, um, skills and legal innovation and technology. And then through that, that really just opened up my, um, my eyes, uh, to how quickly and interestingly, the legal industry was diversifying.
[00:25:34] And it was all full of people who shared my kind of attitude to asking, why do we do this? How can we make it better? What else could we do? So, and then I had a good fortune of, um, coming up, um, finding myself like a dear mentor and friend called Justin, and he's the director and founder of a place called a legal management consulting firm called.
[00:25:58] Janice Dean. And then when I finished my masters, Justin gave me a call and said, we've got, um, a, a short term staffing need. Um, can you join? And just again, for two months, I was like, yes, yes, I can. Great timing. So, yes, exactly. So it's, it's actually the same thing had happened. I, I joined, um, Janine and loved it and still remain in, uh, very good contact and, um, collaboration, um, with the team there, even though now I'm back in London, uh, now I'm back in Melbourne.
[00:26:36] Mm-hmm. Um, so that was fantastic. Um, then my Canadian husband, who I met in London, got a job in Melbourne, which is my hometown. So after four months of love, love, loving Janice De in London, we quickly moved back to Australia. That was a quick career change for me. I continued to do, um, management consulting at Janice Dean.
[00:27:05] Um, but then I also picked up sessional teaching at university because I actually. I aspired to become an academic. When I went into my LLMI wanted to become an academic, and because I had my LLM at, um, from UCL, I was able to pick up sessional teaching and I really did enjoy that. So I did that.
[00:27:25] Throughout 2018, I did a balance of consulting for Jans Dean, again, working remotely, collaborating virtually. Traveling sometimes, um, and, uh, and teaching at Deacon. So that was good. But this role at the Law Institute of Victoria, um, popped up as manager for young boys and it's been fantastic for me because I've got all these different skills and experiences and ideas and, um, know all these, um, really interesting kind of different people.
[00:27:58] I can really bring all of that together and bring that to the, um. And so that's why in this whole, this whole light of, and.
[00:28:13] Only see it as a good opportunity for everybody, and I've, and I've been able to, you know, adapt and change and, um, quickly bring together these, um, new programs by drawing on all of my different skills and experiences and networks to deliver these programs for young lawyers.
[00:28:31] Amy Scarlet: Um, so we'd love to, to get to know a little bit more about you in a fun sort of way, I guess you could say.
[00:28:37] Um, which is going to be 10 quick questions. Are you ready? I think so. I don't dunno until you ask me.
[00:28:47] Rose Inglis: Um, uh, favorite song? Uh, hypnotized by Notorious, BIG favorite book, A fine balance. I forget who it's by, uh, start work early or
[00:28:56] Amy Scarlet: finish later
[00:28:57] Rose Inglis: before I was pregnant. Always start work early, but, um, now that I'm pregnant.
[00:29:03] Definitely finish later because I can't move, I can't get moving in the mornings.
[00:29:08] Amy Scarlet: Um, if you had your time again, would you study law or something else? I think I'd still study law. Do you prefer writing or typing? Writing by hand. What is your favorite podcast? Shameless. Uh, tea or coffee?
[00:29:20] Rose Inglis: Coffee. Always.
[00:29:21] Amy Scarlet: Theater or movies? Theater. Dog or cat? Definitely. Dogs. Cats. Add an inspirational quote.
[00:29:31] Rose Inglis: People don't remember what you said, but they remember how you, you made them feel
[00:29:38] Amy Scarlet: nice. I like it. Thank you very much for entertaining us with that and also providing your amazing insights. Uh, this has been a really great recording with Roseli from the LIV.
[00:29:52] Have I pronounced your name right, rose at the end? You
[00:29:54] Rose Inglis: have indeed. Well
[00:29:56] Amy Scarlet: done. Yay. Um, awesome. You've touched on quite a lot how students do get involved with the LIV and how they can, um, if they want to get involved in the LIV based on, you know, this conversation and what they know of the LIV, how, where would you direct them to, what should they do?
[00:30:12] What's the next steps for them?
[00:30:14] Rose Inglis: Um, so there's various ways that you can get involved. Um, and they all require. Different levels of, um, commitment. So the easiest way is to just start coming along to our events. The biggest one, most law that attracts most law students is the career fair. Many students listen to this might have already been, but we called that annually.
[00:30:37] Um, we've, as I said, we've got these, um, fortnightly, um, online, um. Kind of workshops. So I'd encourage everyone to participate in that. Um, we've also, as I mentioned at the beginning, we've got quite, um, a substantial committee network. Um, so all the details for that are on our website. So that's an opportunity for you to, um, for students to.
[00:31:05] Connect with their peers and, um, collaborate with people who are interested in the same types of things. So we've good professional development committee and I work closely with them to deliver all of our, um, careers, events, and workshops. Um, the law reform committee do fabulous work. So, uh, at the moment they've been, um, doing a lot of work around the modern award for early career practitioners.
[00:31:35] As well as, um, work around modern slavery and also, um, advocating for human rights reform. Um, so there, and there's, we've also got a later lawyers network, so that's for students who have come to the law after, um, a career or two doing something else.
[00:31:56] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:56] Rose Inglis: Um, and that's, that's a very vibrant network as well.
[00:31:59] So yeah, there's all different ways you can get involved. You can write. Um, right. For one of our publications, we've got a blog or, um, the Young Warriors Journal. There's all different ways.
[00:32:10] Amy Scarlet: Thank you so much, rose, for providing all those amazing insights and, you know, giving us more details about who you are and, and your career journey and also, uh, providing a huge amount of information about the LIV.
[00:32:22] We have thoroughly enjoyed having you here today. Thank you so much.
[00:32:26] Rose Inglis: Thank you. It's been great.