Life After Law School | Episode 5 | Cart me out of the firm in a coffin

These days, our special guest is riding high as CEO of a successful legal services company in the 'NewLaw' space. But sometimes success can be hard-won, and for Legally Yours CEO Karen Finch it involved a major reassessment of who and what she wanted to be. Legally Yours www.legallyyours.com.au Music: Upbeat Party by Scott Holmes (CC BY NC license)

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Transcript | Life After Law School | Episode 5 | Cart me out of the firm in a coffin

[00:00:00] Karen Finch: For many years afterwards, I would introduce myself as, hi, I'm Karen and I'm a failed lawyer.

[00:00:06] Amy Scarlet: Karen Finch is CEO of legally yours. These days she's riding high as the head of a successful company, which connects clients with lawyers who provide legal advice for a transparent, fixed. But sometimes success can be hard one.

[00:00:22] And for Karen involved a major reassessment of who and what she wanted to actually be. Karen had always wanted to be a lawyer. For her, it was a calling. She remembers the feeling she had when she was 10 years old, wanting to use her law degree to help people. Karen had fire in her belly while she was at uni.

[00:00:43] She worked full-time as a paralegal at a criminal law firm. It was a reverse of what most Uni students do. She was doing the practice by day and then going to class to learn the theory behind it. When she graduated, she did her articles at a small family law firm, but then her past took an unexpected term.

[00:01:02] Karen Finch: I thought this was it, and really thought that I would be a lawyer until I. Probably in my nineties and someone would have to cut me out the firm in a coffin. Um, and that's what I thought was gonna happen. So, but unfortunately, pretty early on in that journey, um, it became pretty apparent to me that it law had was quite a different thing.

[00:01:21] Um, and I'd still remember sort of being in my pinstripe suit with my. Shoulder pads and thinking, oh my God, I've arrived. This is great. Let me out. The clients. And then being explained about billable hours and billable units, um, and all the things that I had to do, um, in relation to that. And, and to me it was sort of almost that I began to feel like the only value I had in that firm was the amount of time I could spend at my desk on things.

[00:01:45] There was never really, and, and, you know, it wasn't that law firm's fault, it was the system that we were in. Which was essentially saying it rewards inefficiency as long you, you'll be the most successful junior lawyer in the firm if you spend lots of time just doing stuff, whether the outcome, you know, there was no emphasis on outcome or client care or repeat business.

[00:02:05] So I burnt out really, really quick and. I that, that feeling of just knowing that, you know, even though I absolutely loved being a lawyer, it was everything that I wanted. I loved my clients, but I just couldn't work in that system was such, um, I was such a soul destroying moment for me. How

[00:02:23] Amy Scarlet: many years?

[00:02:24] Sorry, was that into your really

[00:02:26] Karen Finch: early on? So I, I'd literally finished my articles. I think I'd been out practicing for one or close to two years, so. Okay. But it was. Burnout really quickly. Yeah. And I have actually heard stats now saying that most family lawyers burn out within two years. Um, okay. In the profession because it's just, it's, you're dealing with highly emotive people in really difficult circumstances and the system is constantly telling you to bill, bill, bill, bill, bill.

[00:02:49] Yeah. Um, and it's, and it's really hard. So, you know, leaving the profession, I honestly felt like I was a failure. You know, how, you know what was wrong with me that I couldn't handle being in that system. Yeah. And so for many years afterwards, I would introduce myself as, hi, I'm Karen and I'm a failed lawyer.

[00:03:09] Like it was, it was something that really sat with me. Um. And, you know, lots of regrets, lots of what was wrong with me, why couldn't I cut, why couldn't I sort of, you know, handle that system. Yeah. It really stuck with me.

[00:03:23] Amy Scarlet: Yeah.

[00:03:23] Karen Finch: But it leads me on because life is a journey

[00:03:26] Amy Scarlet: Yeah. Exactly. To where you are now.

[00:03:29] Yeah,

[00:03:29] Karen Finch: absolutely. So from, from that experience, I actually ended up going into, um, recruitment, which was really interesting 'cause I actually initially saw the recruiter because. I was looking at going into a different firm to see if it was still for me, and they said, you should try recruitment.

[00:03:43] Amy Scarlet: Yeah.

[00:03:43] Karen Finch: Which, which is a tactic.

[00:03:45] That's what they do.

[00:03:46] Amy Scarlet: Anyone listening That's that's right.

[00:03:48] Karen Finch: That's a tactic. Um, but the great thing was, was that, um, it was, it was a wonderful. Experience. And I got to go overseas and I did in-house legal recruitment. And it was a brilliant opportunity to actually see the profession, the legal profession from the outside looking in.

[00:04:02] And I got to really meet some amazing people I got to see and, and still be involved in the industry, but obviously in a very different way. So that was all really great. Came back to Melbourne, had a, had lots of children and, and did the mummy thing for, um, a number of years. And that was when I came across.

[00:04:18] Legally yours. So from all of that background and really long-winded explanation that I've just given you, oh, it was not, it's exactly what we needed, but, but that was why when I saw what legally wa yours was and I heard about it, it resonated so deeply with me. So legally, yours effectively was created because Mira had been practicing as a, um, corporate.

[00:04:37] Banking transactional lawyer overseas. Mm-hmm. And everything that she did in the UK was fixed fees. So when she came back to Melbourne, she was like, why am I being told that I have to do things by billable units or billable hours? It's just not the way. Yeah. There's gotta be a better way. So she was trying to introduce fixed fee.

[00:04:53] So that was back in 2014. And at that time, you know, there was this, there wasn't the awareness around value-based pricing or different ways of doing legal service delivery. And so. She created legally yours in response to all of that. And, and aside to that was also she kept seeing a lot of women in particular leaving the professions to have a family.

[00:05:14] And it was sort of like there's this, there was a perception out there that you were either a, a mom or a lawyer and that you really couldn't successfully do both. Okay. Um, because, you know, you were still being told you had to bill these extraordinary hours and service clients and then once you know, you, you couldn't sort of.

[00:05:32] Work flexibly and remotely and yeah. So it just wasn't around at that point. So joining legally, yours for me was just like, this is amazing breath of fresh air. Right? Absolutely. Because everything that Icorp believed in terms of, you know, I just don't think that as lawyers. Time is our only value.

[00:05:49] Absolutely. In actual fact, time is not, not our value at all. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, our value is very much tied up in our legal knowledge, our expertise, our, you know, how we can articulate and interpret the law that trusted advisor. And it's got nothing to do with how much time that we spend. And clients don't want the time either.

[00:06:07] They actually want our expert advice. You want

[00:06:09] Amy Scarlet: the value add. You know, quality components. Absolutely. Ab which is your mind and what all the, you know, components that you just brought up Absolutely. And the support and, and working through whatever issue or, you know, topic that someone needs you to work on.

[00:06:26] Karen Finch: Absolutely. So we, um, we, we made a conscious effort at the beginning of legally yours to actually go out and sit with community and simply ask a couple of questions. Repetitively. Mm-hmm. So the questions were, if you had a legal need, would you go to a lawyer? If you wouldn't go to a lawyer, why not? And what are your barriers?

[00:06:44] Like what, what's preventing you? What's your perception of the legal industry? So most people out there probably wouldn't be surprised by the initial findings, which was always. There is a real fear and everyone had that story about, my friend went and saw a lawyer and then they ended up with thousands of dollars and nothing happened, and they don't know why they got that invoice and they weren't quite sure what they were paying for.

[00:07:05] So this whole phenomenon of bill shock is, there's a a huge perception in, in the general community out there that when you approach a lawyer, you're going to get bill shock. Yeah. So for us, naturally fix fee, fix that. Absolutely. Because if the lawyer is willing to. Obviously communicate to the client at the beginning of the matter what the value there is they're going to provide.

[00:07:26] Amy Scarlet: Yeah.

[00:07:26] Karen Finch: With a fixed fee.

[00:07:28] Amy Scarlet: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:28] Karen Finch: Then that confusion's gone and it actually doesn't matter what the outcome is because the client feels like they're in control, okay. Of their legal spend. So that was one thing. We knew early on days that that was the problem we were solving. So, because they do talk about these stats of 70% of people having legal needs who don't see lawyers.

[00:07:45] So they would rather speak to their mom or speak to their friend, speak to their accountant, rather than actually speak to the lawyer about a legal problem. So. Bill Shark, absolute number one. The other thing was education. So. We found a lot of the time people, I talk about this funny feeling in your tummy where something sort of you, you know, as a person that, oh, I think that's not right.

[00:08:06] Or perhaps I should go and see a lawyer or I've started a business, I know there are some legal things I probably need to do.

[00:08:11] Amy Scarlet: Yeah, probably.

[00:08:12] Karen Finch: Probably, uh, but in their, so in their mind they kind of go, uh, and then they sort of think, oh, it's all too hard. I don't know, I don't really know the language. I don't know the type of lawyer I should see.

[00:08:23] So this sort of education around being able to say in plain English to community. When you start a business, you need three documents. These are the documents you need and this is the type of lawyer you should be going to see. So breaking it down. Mm-hmm. For the community. The other thing we also found was there was no centralized platform where people could feel they could go to and get sort of that trusted help to get to the lawyers that they needed.

[00:08:46] Okay. So legally yours was essentially. And, and that's what we've built is a platform so similar, and the way I like to put it is similar to Uber where they came in and before Uber started, there was a whole um, kind of demographic out there in society of people who there was only taxis and a lot of people wouldn't use a taxi because there was a bit of a fear factor.

[00:09:05] They cost a lot. They smell it. Sometimes the driver wouldn't take you to the right place. And so there was a whole sort of sector in community that weren't using, um, taxi transport services. Uber comes along and they create a platform that's convenient. It's easy. It's safe. You can track it. And you know, you can tell costs

[00:09:22] Amy Scarlet: upfront typically, but you know, at least within a range.

[00:09:25] Absolutely.

[00:09:25] Karen Finch: And all of a sudden you've got a whole, they created a whole new, um, consumer that was purchasing these transport rides. Interesting. And that's what we do. A consumer that

[00:09:34] Amy Scarlet: didn't even exist. Prior.

[00:09:36] Karen Finch: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's what legal laws is doing for legal. So what we are doing is we are saying, you know, rather than sort of wake up in the middle of the night and think, God, I think I probably should have put some terms and conditions in place for my business, or, you know, something, all these sorts of things.

[00:09:52] It, let's make it easy, convenient for you that, you know, it's all in the one place. We've, we've gone through and we've found the lawyers that can deliver with the right expertise mm-hmm. Fixed fee. So you don't get any of that fear and they are. The lawyers that wanna deliver the service along with it.

[00:10:07] That's brilliant. So, um, yeah, that's what we are doing. So

[00:10:09] Amy Scarlet: people can actually come to your business and ask. I need this or this is, I have no idea what I need. Yes. But I think I might need assistance around this area or this topic or something or other. Absolutely. And you can then go, Hey, cool, we have this service, this person can help you, or these, you know, type of law or so on and so forth.

[00:10:30] So people don't have to feel fearful to come to you initially, just to pose the question. Absolutely. Yeah. And,

[00:10:35] Karen Finch: and that's. That's it. So the initial engagement, so what the platform does, you can hop on to legally yours.com au. You can hop on and we've actually got, um, we've got our own very, um, our own AI chat bot through Joseph, um, which we've called Josephine.

[00:10:49] Okay. So little Josephine pops up in the corner and she's there to help if, if it's literally to ask questions around, okay, so yes, I do have a legal problem. Is it a personal one? So is it family or estate planning? So the whole way it's sort of stepping people through to say, don't, don't fi, don't be intimidated.

[00:11:07] We can get you through. We then provide them with three matches of lawyers that fit their need. And that's kind of based on obviously expertise, location, jurisdiction, um, and then. The way we present our lawyers has been something we are really, really passionate about because for us, we want, it's almost like a bit a relationship, sort of like a dating website.

[00:11:25] I guess if you break it down, we wanna show an image of the lawyer. We want to be able to provide their sort of bio and an easy read. Put videos. So I'm really, really passionate about getting lawyers speaking on camera because that way then, you know, so if I'm in a vulnerable position and I need to speak to a lawyer, I wanna know that I can communicate with that person, that person's right for me.

[00:11:48] And that was the thing we learned very early on in early days of legally yours, is that it's not a transactional, typically the majority of legal needs are not transactional. Okay. They're trust based. Yeah. They're relationship based. Mm-hmm. And people will pay more for someone that they feel that they can form a relationship with that understand their legal need.

[00:12:06] Yeah. Rather than it just being about the cheapest or, you know, it's not about that. In actual fact, when you start talking cheap. People think dodgy lawyer. So it's this sort of understanding the psychology behind what community is seeking, the way we present the lawyers in that way, and then having that phone call.

[00:12:25] Okay. And that's really important. So the initial engagement is always a phone call, complimentary phone call, so that they can see whether that lawyer is able to connecting with them and connect with them. The lawyer's able to give them the opportunity to talk about process. Okay. Talk about what steps may be involved.

[00:12:40] They can then gather information to give a fixed fee quote that brilliant. It's just a beautiful way of doing it. And then obviously technology plays a factor in that behind the scenes moving forward. But, um, I also sit as a board member for the Australian Legal Tech Association. So, you know, we are a legal tech organization, but.

[00:12:56] What we know very clearly is that it's that real fusion between tech mm-hmm. And the human element.

[00:13:01] Amy Scarlet: Wonderful. And that's what's going forward now, or a big buzzword, I guess going on in legal tech and Yeah. Uh, that being involved in careers going forward, and it doesn't sound like, you know, all jobs are going to be washed out because of technology.

[00:13:16] It sounds like it's going to just change, transform, or aid with their current careers or careers in the future. And actually,

[00:13:23] Karen Finch: it's gonna make it. Better. It's gonna make it so better. It's gonna make it better for clients and it's gonna make it so much better for lawyers too, because it then en, it then enables lawyers to get real about the value and deliver the value in the legal.

[00:13:34] Yeah. And not be caught, sort of caught up in the menial and the repetitive, let the technology do the menial and repetitive. Yeah. But it will never replace the human interaction on top. Absolutely. And that's what we as lawyers provide. It's our empathy, it's our understanding. Ability to articulate and interpret.

[00:13:51] Definitely, um, to guide. It's all those things which make us lawyers. Yeah. Um, as you know, law students and graduates are coming out. They'll need to understand technology from a sort of a user perspective and understanding how it works and how you utilize it. But I think in terms of it replacing it, it will never replace.

[00:14:09] It just means that rather, so I was sort of. When I was on my articles in the basement going through dusty files, you know, you know, I love that whole, that that will not be that. Um, so now what it will mean is that you'll actually probably, I actually have a vision of where you'll be more shadowing senior lawyers.

[00:14:25] You get to sit in, you will be more client facing sooner, okay. Than what currently is the, is the sort of process model.

[00:14:34] Amy Scarlet: This is life after Law school, and today I'm speaking to Karen Finch from Legally Yours, a company that we describe as being part of the new law movement. So what exactly is new law? And if it is new, what is old law or big law?

[00:14:50] Karen Finch: What it's referring to is that kind of very, you know, you get into a firm, there's this, the typical structure. You've got, you know, your, your junior lawyers and then your associates, senior associates, partners. Typically it's all billing time, billing based, um, and this is the way it works. Whereas new law flips all of that.

[00:15:07] On its head. So they've thrown out all the typical sort of, you know, structures within firms. Sometimes it's the flat structure, sometimes it, you know, it's a sole practitioner, it's flexible. You don't have to work in the office. You can deliver legal services remotely or virtually. They use technology in a way that enhances the way they deliver.

[00:15:26] But always, I, I think from my observations of the community of new law that I surround myself with, is that at the very heart of it, it's. Everything that a new law, new law firm do is the client. It's at the heart of it. Okay? So what they do is they go back and it's really interesting because I think every other service industry has already done this, but we seem to be slow to catch up in the legal.

[00:15:49] But it's actually going back and saying, what is it that the client or the customer, let's get real their customers. What is it that they want and how do they want it delivered? And let's pretty much evolve every single process. Everything we do. In line with delivering it that way. Yeah. Because ultimately, and this is what, you know, I talk a lot to community about is if law firms and lawyers don't have clients, customers, they can't practice.

[00:16:15] Absolutely. They'll go outta business. Yeah. So we've gotta get real about what it is that we are providing. We are providing a service to community. So for me, yeah, it's all sort of around that. So they design, think all their processes, they design, think everything that's happening internally to obviously deliver that great client experience.

[00:16:32] You know, to their clients externally.

[00:16:34] Amy Scarlet: Okay. So if students are listening to this and going, that sounds like. Me to a t or exactly what I want to do. Yes. And explore now. Yes. Versus, you know, going and practicing for a couple of years and then turning to that if that's what they choose to do in a couple of years.

[00:16:51] Yeah, absolutely. Um, let's go twofold. One, what does it look like if they want to practice that now, as soon as they, you know, graduate or while they're are studying? Yes. How can they get involved? Yes. And then we'll go to two, which will be if they're, you know, working for a couple years and then they look at that.

[00:17:06] Mm-hmm. Will come out. Yeah.

[00:17:06] Karen Finch: So things that they can do now. I mean, I would really, I mean, I guess probably one of the conundrums is as new laws typically are pretty kind of new. Mm-hmm. Excuse the pun, phenomenon. So a lot of the new law firms typically tend to be, you know, quite small. They're very agile, they're very lean.

[00:17:23] So in terms of actually being able, and there are some, like law squared for instance, Dimitri, he's had so much great success with getting some law graduates in and actually now they're part of the firm practicing. Okay. So there, there are typically sort of, um, some firms you can go out there that are new law that are recruiting.

[00:17:39] But ultimately I think what you can do right now if you are, if you're wanting to get down that track, is you need to really broaden. What you can bring to that new law firm. Okay. So when I sort of mentioned they throw out those traditional structures. So yes, you obviously need to have a really good understanding of the law.

[00:17:54] That's that's number one. Yeah. But understanding also business development skills or technology that's out there that you can kind of bring into the firm. So typically your role within a new law firm will be multifaceted. It won't just be, you know, I'm. I'm delivering law. It'll be, you know, you might be doing marketing, you might be doing business development, you might be, um, you know, looking at design thinking processes or understanding new technology being brought in.

[00:18:16] So. Getting a really well-rounded understanding of that, and you can do that. Mm-hmm. By doing things like joining Altar, so you can actually join the Australian Legal Tech Association as an advocate. We've got a student membership.

[00:18:28] Amy Scarlet: Okay.

[00:18:28] Karen Finch: And actually understanding who those players are coming and meeting with us, getting to know us, networking.

[00:18:33] Brilliant. And networking, love networking. You know, it's amazing to me because I, I do spend a bit of time with students and for me, I get so much out of it when I get to sit and have a coffee and meet these brilliant, brilliant minds that are so enthusiastic and so, um, innovative in their approach and they don't even know it.

[00:18:51] And to me, you know, I get a lot out of that, but I still get. I still get the comment, oh, I was too nervous to ask you for a coffee, or, I didn't want to, you know, connect with you on LinkedIn because I thought you probably wouldn't wanna know me. Uh, we all wanna know you. And, and that's the thing, because when, when you're sort of in this community of, of new law law firms and lawyers, we, we.

[00:19:12] We will be hiring you in five, 10 years time. You know? Yes. We will want to get to know you in our community. We want, we want you to hang out. So really, really key to sort of get in and understand. The hackathons are amazing, the legal hackathon. Absolutely. So if you are sitting here and you are thinking, you know, forget big law, traditional law, I wanna go straight into new law.

[00:19:32] Go and do a legal hackathon, get. Get an understanding of what are the trends, what's coming up, what, what is all this sort of legal service delivery and innovation and CX design. Yeah. Get, get amongst it. So you've really gotta sort of be a bit of a sponge in relation to it.

[00:19:46] Amy Scarlet: Absolutely. And be involved.

[00:19:47] Karen Finch: Yeah. Be involved. But if you've, um, and look, I completely get why particularly Monash law students will wanna go and explore that traditional route of law. And I would actually say, go and do it. I think that if you've got a

[00:19:57] Amy Scarlet: calling for it, you really want to. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:20:00] Karen Finch: There's a lot in it, you know, that work hard, play hard mentality.

[00:20:04] You'll go in there and you'll, you know, it's very exciting. Um, you get to meet a lot of amazing people. You get to be around some brilliant minds, go in and do it. But if at some point, and, you know, this is one of the really, sort of, um, unexpected turns that came out with legally yours and, and where we are quite now.

[00:20:21] So we've almost become a bit of a safe haven for people who are in private practice or consulting firms or big law firms that wanna actually now say, I'm burnt out, I'm stressed. I don't like it. I'm sick of just billable, billable hours. I wanna have a whole life balance, not just work I, I want, I wanna see what else is out there.

[00:20:39] And so they come to us and say, how can I start my own firm? Or How can I get to know this community? And I think. Part of what breaks my heart is when I see a lawyer come to me who's had this wonderful say, you know, 5, 6, 7 years experience, they've been micromanaged to the hilt. They, they second guess their skills.

[00:20:59] Um, they've lost that sort of innovation and entrepreneurial spirit that they had at university. And then they think, well, there's nothing else I can do. I, I've gotta leave the profession and go off and do something else. And what I always say to them is. Just, just have a look, just do a bit of exploration.

[00:21:14] And it might not even be as a lawyer, but it might be still doing things within law that you can add value, um, and that are really cutting edge and really exciting. Absolutely. So, I've said it a couple of times, but legal design thinking, oh my gosh, I'll, I'll, I'll actually confess right now. That's what I wanna be when I grow up.

[00:21:30] I'm just like, oh my. So going and listening to beautiful women like Melissa Lyon from Hive Legal, who is just one of the world's premier legal design thinkers and listening, Carl White from CX Design, he talks about customer experience and and understanding all these sorts of things. So there's so much more now that we can do within law, which isn't just strictly.

[00:21:50] As a lawyer.

[00:21:51] Amy Scarlet: Yeah.

[00:21:52] Karen Finch: And we can still be in the profession and still be doing all those amazing things that we wanted to do initially when we started our law degree, which is help people.

[00:21:59] Amy Scarlet: Yeah. And the, what you've just said gives me a buzz of excitement, even though I'm not on that path. And it's, it's good just to know that, you know, the path that you might have planned.

[00:22:10] May work. Yeah. And that's amazing and good on you. Like if you get out of university into the dream job that you always wanted and you stay on that path and yeah. You feel like you've succeeded. Great. Good on you. Yeah. Uh, I keep hearing quite a lot that there's people that have gone into the path that they wanted or they couldn't get into the path that they wanted and they've gone down a different one.

[00:22:32] Yeah. And it's then to me again, really exciting. So absolutely hearing what you're talking about. And look, I've

[00:22:38] Karen Finch: got the benefit of age because I am older and I've lived a bit of life and you know, I think, um, even as I'm sort of talking to you about this, I can see all those different moments where, which at the time in my life I perceived as failures.

[00:22:51] Amy Scarlet: Yeah.

[00:22:51] Karen Finch: We're just. The most amazing gifts that were given to me because it enabled me to get very real about what I wanted, what I wanted to do, what were my values, where I wanted to see it. And you know, it's sometimes is really hard when you're in that moment. Particularly as law students, you know, I was a Monash law student.

[00:23:09] I, I was so high achieving, I thought that I could do everything. You know, you work so hard, you've got this amazing, you know, ability and, and praying and all those sorts of things. And then, you know, I think that when things don't go the way that you've perceived, and I think. We tend to have personalities where we, you know, plan everything.

[00:23:26] We are planners and we are very organized, and we think this is the way things need to happen, but embrace them. It's, I, I know it's incredibly hard, but what I'd like to say is if there's just one person out there listening that perhaps maybe this does happen where you've gone to do something and it hasn't worked out.

[00:23:41] Just change your perception on it. Yeah. It's an amazing gift and you just don't know where you are going to end up. Yeah. Um, I think the other really incredibly important thing is that you've gotta take opportunities and keep your mind open. We were talking about this before, just have an open mind. Um, go in and, you know, the other thing when you were talking about what people can do right now, if they are interested in new law, is listen to lots of podcasts.

[00:24:02] Listen to who these people are, and get a really good feel of who resonates with you and who you admire. Ask them to mentor you. I cannot tell you now, when someone asks you to mentor them, that the amazing. Wow. That's brilliant. Yeah. I mean, I know, I know that people out there go, oh, I don't wanna bother them, or I'm sure they'll think I'm stupid or they'll think I'm silly.

[00:24:21] No, no, no, no. It's, it's amazing. We want to, to give that gift. Okay. And we wanna feel like our experience is required. So just do it.

[00:24:29] Amy Scarlet: Karen, you have been. Absolutely brilliant. I love chatting with you Anytime. Yes. And this is definitely not an exception, so thank you so much for your, your time. Oh, thank you for having me.

[00:24:39] I posted, but before we go helps. Yes. Sorry. Yes, you have helped, and you'll get to, I'm not letting, letting you wrap up too quickly. I was like, no, you can't stop. But what we're going to do is 10 questions and. Just yes, no answer or one worded answers. Okay. With one question, which is a bit more long-winded.

[00:24:56] Okay. Okay. Okay. So as quick as you can, first thing of mind, so no cheating. I can't say no. Alright. Go. Go. Okay. If you had your time again, would you study law?

[00:25:08] Karen Finch: Yes.

[00:25:09] Amy Scarlet: Favorite song

[00:25:10] Karen Finch: at last? Byta James?

[00:25:13] Amy Scarlet: Start working early or finish late.

[00:25:14] Karen Finch: Finish late.

[00:25:15] Amy Scarlet: Radio or tv?

[00:25:17] Karen Finch: Oh, radio.

[00:25:18] Amy Scarlet: Type of milk in your coffee?

[00:25:19] Karen Finch: Skinny.

[00:25:21] Mainly because I like it when they say skinny lattes. I

[00:25:23] Amy Scarlet: go, that's me. I'm skinny.

[00:25:25] Karen Finch: That's my mom joke.

[00:25:28] Amy Scarlet: Work from home or in the office.

[00:25:31] Karen Finch: Oh God, I do both. That's really hard. Both

[00:25:34] Amy Scarlet: city or country?

[00:25:36] Karen Finch: Oh, city.

[00:25:36] Amy Scarlet: Loud space or quiet?

[00:25:39] Karen Finch: Loud.

[00:25:40] Amy Scarlet: Beach or swimming Pool.

[00:25:41] Karen Finch: Oh, swimming pool. Hate sand.

[00:25:44] Amy Scarlet: And finishing off with your favorite inspirational quote.

[00:25:47] Karen Finch: Okay, so, wow, that's a tricky one. 'cause there's so many out there. But one that I, that just always has stuck in my mind and I love is that there's no such thing as failure, only early attempts at success. That is amazing. And it's my mantra. It's my mantra, it's what I've lived at. So that was by, um, Theodore Roosevelt, but that's what I, I lived by.

[00:26:05] So any, any times where I think, oh, it's just a big fat failure or, oh no, I just think No, no, no. It's just an early attempt at success. Absolutely.

[00:26:13] Amy Scarlet: Thank you so, so much. You've been brilliant. Thank you for all your insights.

[00:26:17] Karen Finch: Oh, absolute pleasure, love chatting with you. Thanks, Amy.

[00:26:20] Amy Scarlet: Karen Finch, CEO of legally yours.

[00:26:23] This episode was recorded before the pandemic. So there's a few things that I really wanted to go into detail with Karen. After COVID struck, I caught up with Karen recently to discuss the impact of COVID on new law. It's available now as a bonus episode, so make sure you check it out. Life after Law School comes to you from the faculty of law at Monash University.

[00:26:44] I'm Amy Scarlet. See you next time.