Life After Law School | Episode 7 | From lawyer to 'entrée-preneur'
When we think of law we tend to think of suits, wigs and courtrooms. One thing we rarely associate law with is food. So what would motivate two young lawyers to leap out of a legal career and start something revolutionary in the food business? Today you'll meet Penny Hagekyriakou, lawyer turned CEO of Drool, a food experience and event business that connects people across the globe. You'll also meet Tim McDonald, lawyer turned co-founder and director of Fonda Mexican. Founded in 2010, Fonda was very influential in the Mexican food boom and now has nine restaurants across Australia. How did law prepare them to be entrepreneurs? You'll learn Tim and Penny's tips and tricks from many years exploring their own unique career pathways. Drool www.droolexperiences.com www.instagram.com/drool.aus Fonda Mexican www.fondamexican.com.au www.instagram.com/fondamexican
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Transcript | Life After Law School | Episode 7 | From lawyer to 'entrée-preneur'
[00:00:00] Penny Hagekyriakou: There were people there that had never cooked in their life, and there were the avid foodies, as we call them, but they were all connecting over this shared love of food. And I saw this magic in the social connection and I thought. Gosh, this is something that I absolutely wanna recreate and serendipitously I ended up, you know, finding my way back to Melbourne.
[00:00:24] I now know I was on one of the last Qantas flights home in end of March, 2020. Um, and I got home just in time to start a business in the middle of a global pandemic.
[00:00:40] James Pattison: When you think of law, you tend to think of suits, wigs, and courtrooms. One thing you rarely associate law with is food.
[00:00:48] Isabel Melles Taberner: So what would motivate not just one, but two young lawyers to leap out of a legal career and start something revolutionary in the food business? Today we are talking to Penny Hijack Yaku, CEO of Drool, a food experience and event business that connects people across the globe and Tim McDonald.
[00:01:09] Co-founder and director of the popular and locally loved fonder Mexican. I'm Isabelle Malis Tabner.
[00:01:17] James Pattison: I'm James Patterson, and this is Life after Law School.
[00:01:27] Isabel Melles Taberner: So, while I've mentioned the positions that you hold, uh, I wanna start by asking, how would you describe what you do? And who you are. Penny, I'll start with you.
[00:01:37] Penny Hagekyriakou: Wow, that was an awesome introduction and quite surreal listening back to who I am today and where I've come from. Who I am today is a lawyer turned, I say ENT entrepreneur.
[00:01:51] Bit of a little on there like that. Um, and I feel like I'm still figuring it out. But I'm on my way. Yes,
[00:02:00] Tim McDonald: Tim? Um, I'm a law student. Turned, uh, entrepreneur. Um, uh, whilst I own a food business, I, I got involved more from the business side of things. So it wasn't necessarily, it didn't stem from a passion for food, but a little bit like Penny, I'm a bit of a crossroads and, and still figuring out who I am and, and what's next at the moment.
[00:02:22] Can you take us through,
[00:02:23] James Pattison: uh, a moment? Many years ago now that set in motion, uh, your business fond of Mexican because we are thinking of a time pre the Mexican food boom in Australia. So can you take us to that moment and, and on what started?
[00:02:40] Tim McDonald: Yeah. Uh, well, fortunately there is a moment so I can answer the question.
[00:02:43] It was in 2007 and I was on exchange, um, in America and I'd been in, I think it was New York or LA before the, um, the semester started. It was in, in Indiana at. Purdue, so sort of middle of nowhere. And in LA, New York, I'd seen quite a few of these fresh contemporary, um, um, Mexican restaurants that we didn't have in Australia.
[00:03:05] All we had was Montezumas and Taco Bells. And then I got to Indiana and there was this fresh Mexican food, even in Indiana. And it was a, it was a Chipotle store that I was in in 2007 in September, and that was where I just. Thought Mexican in this country has gone well beyond sort of LA and New York where you'd expect it to be.
[00:03:26] It's so much, uh, more vibrant and fresh than it is in Australia. This is a, this is a business model and I'm gonna do it. Um, so there was a. There was that moment and the next week the local council was running like an entrepreneurial workshop day where you go along where I went to this weird community hall and workshopped the idea as part of this, um, local council run day.
[00:03:48] And the idea on that day is very, actually, very close to what Finder is today.
[00:03:53] Isabel Melles Taberner: And so, penny, what about you? Where was that moment where this, you know, draw sort of started to.
[00:03:59] Penny Hagekyriakou: Appear. It's so fascinating, Tim, that you say that you were inspired, uh, to create your business or you found your business model over in the States.
[00:04:07] 'cause that was the exact same way that I found mine. Right. Um, I had the opportunity to live in New York and I went over there with no job. I left everything at home and I had no idea what I was gonna do, but I knew that I had an entrepreneurial spirit, so I wanted to understand what it was to be an entrepreneur.
[00:04:24] So I thought I have to go work at a startup, and I knew I wanted to work in food, so. I went over and I started applying for jobs and the first job that came up was a food experiences startup. Um, and I thought, gee, I've never heard of this, but why don't we just give it a go? And the irony in when you put something out to the universe, I'm a little bit spiritual, so we're gonna get a bit woo woo, um, but when you put something out there and you make these affirmations of I really want to do this, and, you know, draw these opportunities to me.
[00:04:56] Not only did I work at a food startup platform, it was in a WeWork building, um, in the basement set up by Columbia University, and it was their startup lab, which was, so I was surrounded every day with young founders, um, MBA graduates from Columbia who are all starting their own business. So I was in this basement in New York surrounded by young founders being like.
[00:05:23] Wow. If they can do it, I can do it. And yeah, so I, I started working at this food experiences platform. I'd never known what that was, but this platform was offering things like cooking classes and cocktail classes and wine tastings all around the states. And I think for them it was about scaling and bringing this experience to as many states as possible.
[00:05:44] But for me, when I was in those experiences. I would watch complete strangers come together and bond over food. And there were people there that had never cooked in their life and there were the avid foodies, as we call them, but they were all connecting over this shared love of food. And I saw this magic in the social connection and I thought, gosh, this is something that I absolutely wanna recreate.
[00:06:07] And serendipitously I ended up, you know, finding my way back to Melbourne. I now know I was on one of the last Qantas flights home in end of March, 2020. Wow. Um, and I got home just in time to start a business in the middle of a global pandemic.
[00:06:24] Isabel Melles Taberner: Yeah, that is, that's something we've gotta talk about. Like how has your business changed?
[00:06:29] You know, how have you reframed your business and found ways for it to thrive? I know, I know for you, um. I know 'cause I've been involved in some of the cooking classes, um, that you've found ways to, to sort of pivot. But for both of you, you know, how's COVID affected what you do?
[00:06:45] Penny Hagekyriakou: Look, I think my heart cries for Tim and people in your position, because I saw the devastation that COVID and the pandemic brought the hospitality industry to its knees.
[00:06:56] Um. It was just devastating. And what's devastating still is the repercussions that flow on from that. I'm definitely still experiencing them. Um, so I brought this business model home and I was gonna launch. Um, in person cooking classes and events to the public. And two days before my launch, um, in July, we went into the lockdown for five months.
[00:07:17] So that failed miserably. But I really believed in this vision and I thought, no, the concept of connection is still there. And if anything, people are craving connection now. Uh, so I pivoted the business model and took it all virtually. And to be honest, it could have been the biggest detriment, this pandemic, but it turned into the biggest silver lining for me because it meant that I could scale the company, not just in Melbourne as I envisaged, but all over the world.
[00:07:45] And we were hosting these cooking classes and cocktail making classes. And the great thing was that, um. In terms of our instructors, so many people were out of work, and so I could then give people an opportunity to still do what they love, which is cook and teach and instruct. But it also meant that there were all these amazing people out there without jobs like ex Master Chef contestants and Michelin star chefs and amazing bartenders and sommelier, and I was.
[00:08:11] Hey, I'm a no one, but, um, do you wanna like jump on board and teach these classes with me? And I think that's just how we grew. And, um, you know, grew our brand presence and people loved what we were doing and they established this sense of trust with us. And then post pandemic, we had this audience that loved what we were doing.
[00:08:30] And then we just continue to pivot. Um, again, pivot, pivot, pivot, um, into. Real life.
[00:08:36] Tim McDonald: That's great. And so you, you still doing a mix of online and in person? Yeah. Postcode definitely.
[00:08:42] Penny Hagekyriakou: Uh, the demand for inline inline online has definitely diminished.
[00:08:46] Speaker 6: Yep.
[00:08:46] Penny Hagekyriakou: Um, which is sad because they were just so much fun.
[00:08:49] Tim McDonald: Yeah.
[00:08:49] Yeah. But I
[00:08:49] Penny Hagekyriakou: find that my clients now who are doing virtual are mainly overseas. Yep. So, you know, we are doing things with people in the US and across Asia and it's funny 'cause every time they're like. You know, can you show us what veggie might looks like? And I'm like, just get the jar out and start eating it by the spoon.
[00:09:05] And they're like, what is happening? So it's, yeah, it's good fun.
[00:09:09] James Pattison: Wow. I, I actually would like to pull it back a little bit. I'm conscious that we are talking to two law grads and both of you have had these, uh, great entrepreneurial ideas that have been great successes. And yet this is not how you started your careers.
[00:09:28] You both started as lawyers. So tell us a bit about your legal careers maybe, um, Tim, do you wanna start with your, well,
[00:09:34] Tim McDonald: mine was very short, so maybe get me outta the way for Penny goes, but I You have 30 seconds. As I mentioned, the, the idea for fonder came while I was at university and if. Didn't do my law degree and do exchange, I dunno what I'd be doing now.
[00:09:47] 'cause it, that light bulb moment as I described earlier, came while I was in the States. So I knew before actually starting, I did my traineeship grad year at Minter Ellison. But before I started that I, I was already pretty set that Fonda was gonna be my thing. But I just wanted to get qualified. Um, and that was still a fantastic year at Miners.
[00:10:09] Um, but if I'm honest, my, my head and heart was in, in, in the future with, with Fonda. Um, so yeah, it was only a brief stint for me, um, at Miners. Um, it was a long stint studying. I was there for eight or nine years, but I don't, I don't regret a moment of it. Um, and I think thinking back, I think you take a lot away, almost subconsciously, like the people that you meet and the experiences you have.
[00:10:34] Shape who you are and how you think, which really goes to, to whatever you're doing, whether you're an entrepreneur or a lawyer, or a nurse or whatever you might be. Um, so I don't regret, um. Any of that, but it was a, yeah, it was a short experience at at Minter's. And I do recall when I resigned and I let my partner at the time know that I was resigning to start a Mexican restaurant, um, he, he genuinely thought it was a joke.
[00:10:56] Um, so it was a bit awkward when he realized that I wasn't joking. Um, and he had to sort of fake support and, uh, but no, it was, how many times in his career had he been told something that he made a point? And a few people made a point that that was the first time that anyone's ever resigned from miners to start a, to start a Mexican.
[00:11:14] Do you think,
[00:11:15] James Pattison: I'm wanting you are, you are thinking at that point, I mean, regardless of the fact that it's just a funny, a funny situation to find yourself in, was your thinking at the point, oh my God, like this is, what have I done? Yeah.
[00:11:25] Isabel Melles Taberner: What have I done? What have I done?
[00:11:27] James Pattison: Or is it like, I'm free. No one has done this before.
[00:11:30] This is a brilliant idea.
[00:11:31] Tim McDonald: No, neither, neither. I just, it didn't phase me sort of positively or or negatively. I was 20. Seven at the time. I think, um, then I was pretty naive what, what I was in for. Um, it's been great. It's been harder than I thought it would be. Um, but the great thing about making decisions when you're a young person is that you are naive.
[00:11:51] Usually naivety is described as a negative thing, but sometimes it can actually mean that you. Do things and make decisions that are the right decision for you. But if you knew what you're in for, you knew how hard it was gonna be, you may not make that decision. So I was, um, I was blissfully unaware at the time.
[00:12:08] Penny, how about yourself?
[00:12:09] Penny Hagekyriakou: So, great. Tell
[00:12:09] James Pattison: us about your legal career.
[00:12:11] Penny Hagekyriakou: 27 is again, a similarity we share. That's the age that I realized, no, not law is not for me. My soul is dying. Um, and I need to leave. Um, but look. Again, naivety. I think it's a, a great sentiment because when I was, you know, coming outta year 12, I think a bit like everyone, I went into the law wanting to be the Atticus Finchers, Neil Woods of the world.
[00:12:32] Um, and then, you know, did legal studies and ended up in the law degree and, and loved a lot of it. Um. But I did feel like there was this kind of ideal that you had to go and be the Minter Allison graduate. You had to practice commercial law in order to be successful. And I very quickly found out that was not me.
[00:12:54] I was not the commercial lawyer, and I found it really hard. Um. And through my law degree, I actually was food blogging. Um, a little bit like going, and I was, I was the person at the cafes taking the photos of the food and people like, God, what's she doing? And that was me. Um, and so I kind of left the law.
[00:13:11] Um, so I feel like when I break it down, the reason why I went into law was probably for three reasons. I loved advocacy. Um, I was a performer and I was a debater and I really loved public speaking. Um, so I knew I wanted to. Be an advocate. Um, and then I really wanted to work with people. I had great interpersonal skills, which come in very helpful today and in the law.
[00:13:35] Um, and then I just knew I wanted to make a change somehow. And so that all made sense in law, but not in the way that I thought it would be. So when the world came crashing down around me going, you've gotta be a commercial lawyer, you've gotta be, you know, top tier, firm, graduate. I'm thinking, that's just not me.
[00:13:50] Um. I decided, okay, criminal law, family law, that's probably my path. So I went into that, um, field and I really enjoyed it, but it was very, very challenging. Um, I'm an empath, so I take on a lot and I just found it really hard to detach and leave that at home or in the office. Um, so my outlet was food, and so I would continue to do the food blogging and going to events.
[00:14:13] And a lot of people actually thought I was in marketing and pr and when they found out I was a criminal lawyer, they were like, what are you doing there? You are just not, that is not who you're meant to be. So I, I feel like the day came where I had to come to grips with reality, and it took me about 18 months to actually come to terms with the fact that I.
[00:14:32] Needed to leave the law. And I think there was a lot of guilt and shame attached to that because a lot of people had been going, and maybe similarly to you and maybe your partner Tim, going, why the hell would you wanna leave? Like, you've put so many years in, you've studied so hard, you know, what are you thinking?
[00:14:48] And I just think sometimes you've gotta go, no, I'm not happy and I have to be that naive person and you know, take a jump. Um. And so, yeah, I knew that there was food. I, I was really good within the food industry. Um, had this entrepreneurial, creative spirit that I wanted to chase, and so that was the kind of leap out of law into food.
[00:15:09] Isabel Melles Taberner: Yeah. How like, that's a really interesting thing. How do you back yourself? When, you know, when you make that decision, um, because you will have people sort of looking at you and thinking, you spent all these years and you committed so much time to this, you know, maybe you need to just try a different pathway and law.
[00:15:25] Um, so I suppose, yeah, I'd like to know. Beyond being naive and having the benefit of that, how do you back yourself, you know, what would you say to students who are thinking about taking that leap? What's, what's your advice?
[00:15:38] Penny Hagekyriakou: I think that when you find yourself in a spot where you're genuinely unhappy and you feel like you're in a bit of a rut, something needs to change.
[00:15:46] You need to move forward. And I think that I always. Was fearful of, you know, life is very short and if you don't take the chances, you don't take the leap of faith. I never wanted to look back with regret. So it was a very hard decision and it took me 18 months, um, of being in denial really, and going, no, no, you can stay in the law.
[00:16:05] You're fine in the law. And then I'd go, my other angel devil on the shoulder would go, no, you need to be free. So, um, I think that you need to surround yourself with people who believe in you. Um, so I, I wanna say how grateful I am for you doing this podcast because at the time when I was at uni, I did feel like a bit of an imposter.
[00:16:24] I felt like I was in this sea of students who are super competitive, um, wanting to do things that. I didn't necessarily wanna do, but I thought I had to do, um, because I didn't know what my options were. And I think that, yeah, so I'm, I'm very grateful for this podcast existing, and it's funny because it's not as if I really needed the podcast back in my uni days, but it was at that number 27.
[00:16:48] It was when I was coming outta the law and having all these people saying to me, what are you doing? And I needed that voice to tell me, actually, there's so much more that you can do. Um, so it was kind of in my later. Twenties that I needed that this advice. So I know, I
[00:17:04] Isabel Melles Taberner: know you both felt that you needed to take different pathways, but I think you both felt empowered and emboldened by what you'd learned to take those pathways.
[00:17:14] So can you tell me a little bit about the skills and the things you learn during your law degree that you've taken forward with you?
[00:17:23] Tim McDonald: My initial response to that question is I don't think I've ever really. Had a strong link in my head or felt required to practice law after studying law. And there's a question that often comes up if you studied law and didn't practice, but there's a lot of degrees where people don't go on to necessarily, necessarily practice in that profession.
[00:17:42] They may have studied, and I do think that law graduates put unnecessary or unjust pressure on themselves to practice law or not practice law. Most people in most other degrees don't. O overthink it. Like law graduates seem to, or don't feel the pressure to stay in the vocation that's linked to their, their tertiary education.
[00:18:02] So I just saw university as. A great experience, a life experience. Not just what I learned, but who I became, the friends I made experiences that I had. But, um, when COVID hit and things looked like they were really gonna be tough, I, I had a very serious, um, uh, well, seriously considered going to the bar. Mm.
[00:18:24] So I'd been 10 years out. Um, and going to the bar is something that I think I'd enjoy. I ended up not doing it 'cause I didn't think I'd be. Good enough to, to, um, to be successful. Um, I did a whole lot of research speaking to, to barristers, um, and they were all so freaking impressive that whilst they were really helpful, it also helped me realize that I wasn't gonna cut it, um, going toe to toe with them.
[00:18:48] Isabel Melles Taberner: I love, I love that you did have that moment though, of realizing, you know, that door is still open to you. And you know this, I think people do have, on average about seven. Is it seven careers in their lifetime? Yeah, something like that. I feel like the number's rising all the time, but you know, you might go back and have a totally different career.
[00:19:07] At some point you might go back into the law and I, I do think that's good to know that door's still always open to you. Definitely. I
[00:19:13] Penny Hagekyriakou: think you can go back. To anything. Yeah. You know, and I think having that legal degree behind you is invaluable. It makes you more credible. Um, and I think I, I agree with Tim.
[00:19:24] It just shapes life skills. Um, you know, as you said, yeah. We will look at contracts or, um, you know, especially with COVID Pandemic, I was constantly looking at my terms and conditions and how to go about cancellations and refunds and trying to, you know, navigate and mediate. Issues and problem solve. Um, but I think back to it now and it's very much shaped who I am in the sense of I am, you know, very, um, objective and realistic now, and I can remove some of that emotion.
[00:19:54] Um, and I think for me it's been people's skills.
[00:19:58] Isabel Melles Taberner: Hmm.
[00:19:58] Penny Hagekyriakou: Um, being able to articulate and communicate and mediate and, um, work with people from all walks of life. Uh, one thing I really valued, well, many things I valued at Monash, but, um, two things I really valued was, um, taking the opportunities that were given to me to do co-curricular things.
[00:20:17] So I worked at a, um, with an organization called Plea, and it was the prison legal education, so, uh, association. Um, and we ran it out of Monash. Springvale legal service, and so I would be going to prisons and running seminars and workshops for inmates because I always knew I wanna be a criminal lawyer.
[00:20:37] So in order to do that, I need to understand my client and they are. Mainly in prison. So I went and worked with him in prison and just developing those, um, personable skills, you know, being able to adapt to your environment and dropping down, um, or raising up, you know, your audience so that they would trust you and believe in you, and wanna be on board with what you are preaching.
[00:20:59] Which very much, um, is what I'm all about now. Um, but also I worked at Springvale, Monash legal Service. I did the, um, kind of program, the clinical practice, and I think it should be a part of a legal degree because if anyone wants to be a solicitor in any avenue of law, I highly suggest, just like in the medical degree, they make you open a.
[00:21:21] You know, cadaver and get in there. I just feel like students should be, you know, roll up their sleeves, get into the clinics, work with people you know, from lower socioeconomic backgrounds because it just, um, empowers you to empower them, strengthens your communication. Um, and just, yeah, it, it's wonderful for life skills.
[00:21:41] Isabel Melles Taberner: Yeah, it is one of the reasons that our, um, our grads tend to be more job ready. Yeah. 'cause I've had that opportunity to actually do the things that they're learning about
[00:21:50] Penny Hagekyriakou: and it's a great weeding out process as well, you know? Yeah. Similar, similarly to doctors. It's like you go in there, you work. I remember my first client in, um, Springvale Monash legal service, and they were, uh.
[00:22:01] Elderly grandparents who were in a custody battle for their grandchild. And I remember going into that room and going, just gimme one second. I'm just gonna pop outside and I just bawled my eyes out. Oh, okay. I was so emotional and so rattled because this was real, like this was real life and I. I was helping them, but my decisions, my advice would shape their life decisions.
[00:22:24] So I just felt that immense pressure, as you said, Tim going out, going, oh my God, this is so much pressure on me. And one piece of advice that my, um, instructor gave me at the time, she said to me, look, you need to hold it together. Pull yourself together. I was like, whoa, okay. And she's like, you are not a psychologist.
[00:22:43] You are not a social worker. You are not a therapist. You are not their shoulder to cry on. You are a lawyer and today they are here to get objective advice from you and if you offer them anything else, you would actually be giving them a disservice. Mm.
[00:22:56] Isabel Melles Taberner: To
[00:22:56] Penny Hagekyriakou: stick to your job. And I was like, whoa. And yeah, I think that some people may not be able to handle it.
[00:23:02] I was on, I was on the verge. I, you know, but I went down that path and now I'm not, no longer in that path 'cause like I couldn't handle it anymore.
[00:23:11] James Pattison: I'm really interested to, you know, have heard both of you sort of. See this path in front of you that you've wanted to take and you, you go along it and it's taking you into weird and wonderful places.
[00:23:23] What keeps you on that path? What's, what keeps you
[00:23:27] Tim McDonald: going? I think, as Penny said earlier, just enjoying what you're doing, um, at any point in time. And that will, that will change for me at that point in time. After Minter, when I left Minter, I was, I actually really enjoyed it. I liked the environment. Um, I was in the tax department, so I couldn't say I loved the work I was doing, but there was nothing wrong with it.
[00:23:47] But at the time, it was the right. Time and place for me to, to start the, the Mexican business. But seven years later, COVID hit, the business had grown, so it wasn't fonda's, not necessarily like an entrepreneurial thing for me anymore. It's, I'd play a very passive role in fonder. There's a general manager and whatnot.
[00:24:06] And at that time I considered going to the bar partly because of COVID, but partly because I think I was looking for something different and I looked at the, the flexibility a barrister has, the intellectual stimulation, the the great sort of colleagues and people that you're working along with. And I, I seriously.
[00:24:21] Um, considered going to the bar. So at that point in time wasn't necessarily loving Fonda and there were aspects of the bar that appealed to me. Now, obviously didn't go to the bar, but to answer your question, it's where you're at in life, um, emotionally, um, intellectually, spiritually with your family and your, your career.
[00:24:41] Cha, your careers do change. So what it, what it is to be a junior lawyer, I think is quite different to be a senior lawyer. What it is to be an entrepreneur. Starting a business is very different to running a business that's 10 years old. So I think it is just one big, long, messy path that might go in and out of the law and in and out of a lot of things.
[00:25:00] But I think what drives it for me personally, is just feeling. Happy and content with whatever you're doing and not putting pressure on yourself to keep doing what you're doing just because that's what you've been doing for the last 10 years, or just because that's something that you studied at uni.
[00:25:16] Isabel Melles Taberner: So the question then is, yeah, what's the next thing for you?
[00:25:20] Tim McDonald: Oh, um, uh, is this
[00:25:23] Isabel Melles Taberner: a spoiler? Are you allowed to tell us? No?
[00:25:25] Tim McDonald: Well, it. It's a spoiler, but I'm allowed to tell you world. Oh,
[00:25:28] Speaker 4: I'm really excited. Please.
[00:25:29] Tim McDonald: No. So I'm trade secrets. So as I said, I've, um, interestingly, three or four years ago when I was sort of bogged down with a lot of the admin associated with Fonda, I was just overwhelmed.
[00:25:40] And it was actually a, a, a fellow law student that I caught up with who'd, um, recently been diagnosed with a DD. Or a DH adhd. He was in London working at the time, really smart guy, very similar. And he set off, you know, went through this experience and I got diagnosed and I, I don't know what, but I went home and Googled adult, adult, A DHD, and I was like, wow, this is, this is me.
[00:26:02] This was like, I was so relieved to, you know, subsequently went on and got a diagnosis and whatnot, but in discovering that I had a DHD three or four years ago, it would really enlightened me on what I was. Great at and what I was really bad at, and it helped me to cement in my mind that the startup phase of business was really for me, not necessarily continuing to work in it and grow it.
[00:26:27] So, um, that was a bit of a, a medical slash life experience that helped me understand myself better. And, um, I more quickly moved into a passive role at funder. I stepped back and let a more. Disciplined structured management team run the business. And I'm focusing on, I've got a new, um, concept that I'm starting in the fried chicken space.
[00:26:48] Um, a I believe in this, the idea and the brand and the concept, but it's more importantly it's a lot more aligned with what I enjoy, um, and what I'm good at
[00:26:58] James Pattison: that is, that is fascinating. Wow. And turning that, the fact that there is that sort of affirmation of something that you inherently knew about yourself without knowing it.
[00:27:08] Sounds like it's taken you, it's actually opened up. Oh, yeah. Possibilities.
[00:27:12] Tim McDonald: Yeah. It's really, but I've reading a bit about a DHD. A lot of people, when you only discover that later in life, it's really enlightening. It's like, um, someone described it as. It's like being in a boxing ring, boxing someone with the lights are out and you dunno what you're fighting and because it's pitch black and someone turns on the lights and all of a sudden you understand what you're fighting so you can actually deal with it.
[00:27:33] Um, so yeah, it was, it was a really enlightening experience.
[00:27:36] Penny Hagekyriakou: Penny, what's next for you? So going back to your question about what are the things that you've come out and you're learning and you're, you're taking on now, it's funny because I'm always come 360 as to why I got into the law with those three reasons, and it's now what I understand to be what I'm still chasing, which is advocacy.
[00:27:57] Working with people wanting to make a change. And I still, even though that's, they're the three reasons why I went into the law, they're the three reasons that I live by right now. Um, and going on to what's next. Um. I mean, look, as opposed to Tim, you know, 10 year business, which is incredible. I just, awe inspiring.
[00:28:15] Um, I'm only two years in and those first two years was battling a pandemic, so I'm still in the trenches trying to figure out, you know, how to, how to grow and, um, iterate and all those things. But I think firstly, growing the business, scaling the business, and seeing what potential it has, um, but also me personally, I think that I'm stripping back to what do I want to do?
[00:28:37] Um, and I really wanna pursue the kind of presenting and hosting space. Um, I, I knew I was always a very good speaker, but it wasn't actually until I was hosting our events and stepping up and having to present events because I was the only person there to do it. People, their feedback was saying, you are really good at this.
[00:28:57] You're a really good presenter. You're a really good host. And I thought, yeah. Yeah, but that you can't do that as a job. And now I realize actually you probably can do that as a job. So I don't know. I think that, um, yeah, growing the business but also seeing what my own capabilities can, can do in the speaking space.
[00:29:15] Um, but I also think that I wanna talk about pressure. 'cause I feel like when, you know, as a law student, you put. Incredible pressure on yourself, your peers, put pressure on you. Um, the subjects put pressure on you. And look, there were some subjects that I, I loved and there were some subjects that I didn't love.
[00:29:35] James Pattison: Examples.
[00:29:36] Penny Hagekyriakou: Yes, we need names. We
[00:29:37] James Pattison: need names. Names and unit codes, names
[00:29:39] Penny Hagekyriakou: and unit codes. Okay. So I'm a bit of a nerd when I say that. There were a couple of subjects that I loved. So, um, because I love advocacy, um, I love trial practice and advocacy. And that was taken by, um. Ju Justice Hampel George Hampel, and that was incredible to be sitting in a room with a former, very senior judge teaching me how to cross examine.
[00:30:01] That was incredible. Um, I also loved, obviously the Spring Belt Monash legal service, and, um, I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to go and study abroad in p Preto in Florence. Best time of my life, do it. If you can do it, there is a university for law in Florence. You go and live your best life with your friends, and you're being taught by these incredible, um, teachers and former judges.
[00:30:27] And, um, one of my favorite subjects was, um, comparative sentencing. And I was in a room with students from all around the world. Um, and it was actually, um, Ari Freiberg's last. Class that he hosted as the dean of law, uh, before he went to go full-time as chairman at the, um, sentencing advisory commission.
[00:30:46] And we sat there and talked about, you know, how would you charge someone with this case or, you know, of murder in Australia versus in America versus in Canada versus in Israel and just. Kind of broadening my mind with all of these international students and having this comparative view on law and people was just incredible so that they were my favorites.
[00:31:09] The bane of my existence in my law degree,
[00:31:12] Isabel Melles Taberner: yes,
[00:31:12] Penny Hagekyriakou: was property law. It was the worst. I actually, I actually bring, it brings me back trauma, um, purely because I just could not get my head around it. I couldn't and Okay, I'm gonna do this. Um, that's why
[00:31:26] James Pattison: I failed.
[00:31:27] Penny Hagekyriakou: Okay. I'm so, thank you. Okay. This is why I brought this up.
[00:31:30] Thank you for saying that because the word failure should not be such a scary word. When I was doing property law, I just couldn't, I couldn't grasp it. And apart from my family, no one knows this. I've never breathed this out loud. I failed property law.
[00:31:46] James Pattison: You heard it first on life after law school.
[00:31:47] Penny Hagekyriakou: I failed breaking news.
[00:31:49] I was so devastated and so ashamed, and I actually like had to pretend around my peers that like. Yeah, I'm just, you know, going into this building. It's not property law. They've finished up in there, run to property law again, and it was just the worst. I, I personally, felt like a failure and I feel like it's so important to say.
[00:32:09] Not just to students, but anyone in life. Like, you've gotta fail sometimes and you've just gotta admit defeat. And you know, the second time I did it round, I was like, oh, now I get it. But
[00:32:21] James Pattison: this is, this is a wonderful, I'm glad that I could bring that out of you. As property B. Failed property B, that was me too.
[00:32:27] Worst of all the properties. Um, how about you, Tim? Any subjects come to mind?
[00:32:34] Tim McDonald: The only thing I, I really love studying law. I just. Um, I really enjoyed the, the subjects, the intellectual stimulation. Um, yeah, I, I don't think I ever really had a strong interest in being a long-term commercial lawyer. Um, but it didn't stop me enjoying, um, the subjects I studied.
[00:32:52] Just thinking back now, I'm trying to phrase things that might have meaning. Um, I just recall a lot of advice. Um. In year 12 and at university that I can see retrospectively that it was real and meaningful, but it didn't resonate with me at the time. So I'm just, I'm hesitant to share any thoughts. That is gonna be another like, yeah, we've heard that before, but, um.
[00:33:15] I think just to be open-minded, um, I would encourage anyone at Monash or any university to be open-minded about what you're gonna get out of your university degree. I'm not a lawyer, but I met my wife at law school. I got the idea for my business when I was on exchange at law school. Um, most of my closest friends I met at uni, I had probably the best eight years of my life.
[00:33:34] So. Just being open-minded as to what you might get out of it as opposed to a direct path to a, to a career. Um, this is gonna sound cliche, but what you choose to do after, after law school, that's just like, that's just your next decision. It's not, um, forever. Um, it doesn't feel like at the time I just remember feeling like that decision was, that was it, and that's what it was gonna be.
[00:33:56] But with the benefit of hindsight, it, it is just your next decision. That's all it is. Um, and a quote that I heard. I think I heard it too late 'cause it was well after, um, well to Fonda, but someone said, think about what you want to be doing, not what you want to be. And that resonated with me 'cause I did get sucked into the vortex of being a, a.
[00:34:18] A commercial lawyer at a, at a top tier law firm, but I had no idea what that actually meant, what they do day to day. Um, and if I looked further into what they do day to day, I would've realized that that's actually not what I want to be. So just differentiating. What you actually wanna do, like think about the tasks and the work setting that you enjoy and, and, and what sort of gives you a buzz in life and then finding a, a, a career or whatever it may be that fits that rather than these ideal of being a lawyer or a.
[00:34:52] Nurse or a, whatever it is. Some people think they wanna be an entrepreneur and they become one and they hate it, but they just, they were, um, attracted to the idea of being an entrepreneur without understanding what it actually meant on a day to day basis. Yeah, I
[00:35:03] Isabel Melles Taberner: agree. That understanding. What do you wanna be spending your time on?
[00:35:08] Not the title you wanna have. I think that's a really important distinction. Absolutely agree.
[00:35:13] Penny Hagekyriakou: And to try all the things. Try all the things because I think, um, life is short, but also your career is long. Um, one of my business mentors. Did this excellent exercise with me when I was again, just in this mind warp of where am I?
[00:35:29] Who am I, what am I gonna be? Um, and he drew this long line across the whiteboard and he said, okay, this is birth, this is death. And he said, the first 25 years is like education, figuring it out, travel have fun. And he said, and then from 25 to 30, you're in your first job jobs and you're realizing, Nope, don't like that.
[00:35:48] And then you get to about your 27 30 mark and you go, crap. You know, you have this almost satins return of who am I, where am I, what am I gonna be? And he said, are you gonna be one of those people that you make it rich, make it big retire, call it quits at, you know, 40, 50. Or are you gonna be one of those people that you're being dragged outta the office on your deathbed in your eighties, nineties?
[00:36:11] Maybe eighties, let's eighties. I said, yeah, I'm definitely gonna be the latter. And he said, okay, so let's draw the line at 30 and let's finish the line at seventies, eighties. And he's like, you've got another 40, 50 years to figure it out. And when I heard that, I thought, wow. Oh my goodness, that's a lot of time.
[00:36:29] And he goes, it's a lot of time to try all the things, make mistakes. 'cause somewhere along the way you're gonna figure out, as you said Tim, like what it is you love doing. Um. And then just do
[00:36:39] Isabel Melles Taberner: it. I think we could keep going for a long time. But, um, thank you Penny and Tim for joining us today. This has been a really thought provoking conversation.
[00:36:49] If people have follow up questions or wanna know a little bit more about you and what you do, where can they find you?
[00:36:55] Tim McDonald: Um, just have a look out for a little fried chicken brand on the horizon in 2023. It's gonna be called Poppies. Um,
[00:37:01] Penny Hagekyriakou: that's the name of my dog.
[00:37:02] Tim McDonald: There you go. Yeah, everyone's got a link to a poppy.
[00:37:05] Um, if anyone wants to reach out for any reason, I'm my email's tim@fondermexican.com au.
[00:37:11] Isabel Melles Taberner: Amazing.
[00:37:13] Penny Hagekyriakou: I will spook, I will sp spook the hell out of this. Um, so you can find us drool experiences.net au, uh, and our handle is drool au. And if you wanna find me at my journey of what I'm doing next, um, I'm just starting Penny presents.
[00:37:31] Yeah. So you can check that out.
[00:37:32] Tim McDonald: That all went first then. That's good.
[00:37:37] Jesus Christ.
[00:37:44] James Pattison: That's Penny. Hud, ku, CEO of drawl, and Tim McDonald, co-founder and director of Fonder Mexican Life After Law School comes to you from the faculty of law at Monash University for law courses, industry partnerships, and law. Head to monash.edu/law.