Life After Law School | Episode 9 | Lights, camera, legal action!
Ever dreamed of doing stand up comedy? How about writing for film and TV? If you've got a creative streak this episode is for you. Today you'll meet a couple of lawyers turned creatives who are tearing up the world of entertainment. Nick Musgrove is a dual Australian Writers Guild Award nominated film and television writer. He wrote 'Wrong Kind of Black' with Boori Monty Pryor which was nominated for a 2019 International Emmy Award and is available on Netflix. Before his film and TV career, he was a wide-eyed junior lawyer at Minter Ellison in their commercial litigation team. Tess Birch is a senior associate at Ashurst specialising in environment and planning law. She's an emerging comedian who performs around 100 gigs per year, including at the Melbourne and Adelaide comedy festivals. Tess Birch www.instagram.com/tessofthebirchervilles Nick Musgrove www.tandemmedia.tv
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Transcript | Life After Law School | Episode 9 | Lights, camera, legal action!
[00:00:00] Nick Musgrove: You know that moment at the airport where you have to state your occupation And I'm wondering, can I write writer and then put a question mark at the end?
[00:00:09] Isabel Melles Taverner: John cli, rebel Wilson, Roni Yang, Sean iff, and doe all entertainers. And they all have one thing in common.
[00:00:21] James Pattison: They all have at least one N in their names.
[00:00:24] Isabel Melles Taverner: Yes. And they all have law degrees.
[00:00:27] James Pattison: Much more interesting.
[00:00:28] Isabel Melles Taverner: So what is it with lawyers going into the entertainment industry today? We meet a couple of lawyers turned entertainers. I'm Isabelle Malis. Tabner.
[00:00:36] James Pattison: I'm James Patterson. We are not those entertainers, and this is life after Law School.
[00:00:55] Isabel Melles Taverner: Our guests today are comedian Tess Birch and screenwriter Nick Musgrove. Welcome to you both. Tess, we have planted a label on you and Nick, comedian and screenwriter respectively. How would you describe who you are and what you do?
[00:01:11] Tess Birch: I would probably describe myself as a lawyer slash comedian 'cause I am still working as a lawyer.
[00:01:16] Um, but definitely in the last few years, comedy has become a big part of my identity and what I do day to day.
[00:01:26] Nick Musgrove: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:26] Tess Birch: Um, I've. Almost done 100 gigs this year. So amazing. It's definitely happening. So at one
[00:01:33] Isabel Melles Taverner: point you can swap and instead of being lawyer slash comedian, you can be comedian slash lawyer.
[00:01:38] Tess Birch: Yes. I would say that's the goal, except my work. Keep asking me if that's the goal and I have to be quite about it. We'll
[00:01:45] Isabel Melles Taverner: cut this bit out. Um, Nick, what about you? How would you describe who you are?
[00:01:50] Nick Musgrove: It's a vexed question. Um, you know, that moment at the airport where you have to state your occupation and I'm wondering, can I write writer and then put a question mark at the end?
[00:01:59] Um, but no, I, I am committed to calling myself, um, and. Perhaps, or even in danger of being a, uh, a writer for, uh, mostly for film and television.
[00:02:09] Mm.
[00:02:09] James Pattison: I'd love to see that on your, on your business card or on your declaration. Yeah. All of that.
[00:02:12] Nick Musgrove: Yeah.
[00:02:12] James Pattison: Writer. Just in danger of being, are you carrying dangerous goods?
[00:02:16] Yes. Oh, yes. This pen.
[00:02:17] Nick Musgrove: Potential
[00:02:18] James Pattison: raw potential.
[00:02:19] Isabel Melles Taverner: I will write a story about you. You look out.
[00:02:23] James Pattison: So we're really interested in hearing your origin stories today. You know, you, you both started studying law, you both completed your law degrees. There's not gonna be any bombshells here that, that you micro cross
[00:02:36] Tess Birch: situation.
[00:02:37] James Pattison: A few close calls along the way, but, and, um, and you both practice law. So we'd love to hear about, um. Your your early career days, but also then how you've gone to these just weird and wonderful career paths. But we might start, actually, Nick with you. What did your first year out of uni look like?
[00:02:58] Nick Musgrove: It was a deferred, uh, year, so I was lucky enough to have a, um, an offer to start my graduate year at Minter Ellison, um, which I received.
[00:03:08] Uh, the offer in 2008, um, wherein I was in proto, which was wonderful. Um, and a lovely way to finish my law degree, uh, where I also met my wife. Fun fact. Um, and then, um, deferred to write a television show for Channel 31, um, on community tv. Um, and thought, uh, because. I aspired to be a writer. This would be the, the moment to, uh, prove to myself and to the world that that's something I could do.
[00:03:34] And so I did it and then accepted my placement at Minter Ellison, um, when the show came and went, um, and commenced, uh, in 2010, um, and practiced. Well, I did three rotations through the graduate course at Ellison, which was a wonderful place to work and had a really amazing graduate group that, um, many of whom are still very dear friends.
[00:03:54] James Pattison: One of them appears on, um, life after law school conversations, but you'll
[00:03:58] Nick Musgrove: have to go back through the catalog to find out who Thank
[00:04:01] you. You must work in entertainment.
[00:04:04] James Pattison: And so, so working in that field, like being a writer. Sounds like something that you always wanted to do, was it?
[00:04:10] Nick Musgrove: Yeah, absolutely. So I, I, um, fell in love with writing at school where I was lucky enough to write some very bad, but very enjoyable, uh, for my part, uh, school plays.
[00:04:19] Um, and then wrote through uni, um, uh, through the minus law reviews, um, and through minus student theater, um, and met a, uh, a group of. Um, like-minded, uh, friends and colleagues, um, who, uh, formed a sketch comedy group with me, um, when we left university after the law reviews. Um, and so by the time I was, um, at Minters, there was a bit of a internal tension going on as to the trajectory of my future that I was wrestling with.
[00:04:44] Both, um, in terms of perhaps belief as to what I might be able to do, but also like what the best choice would be, um, as to whether it would be, um. Life in the law or, or beyond. Its, um, very safe and prestigious sort of, um, bounds, which, um, which was a tough call, um, but one that I slowly sort of edged out towards.
[00:05:02] And, um, in 2012 took the plunge after, um, two years at Minter. Uh, and they were really supportive of that as well. They were really a really, um, accommodating. Place to work. They were aware of my aspirations as a writer and really supported them and, um, were excited for me when I said that that's something I wanted to go and try and do.
[00:05:19] Um, and so, yeah, so two years there, and then they were even kind enough to welcome me back on occasion to do contract work as I was finding my feed and finding my way as a writer. And then, um, it wasn't till 2015 that I got, um, sort of, I, I suppose a big. Break writing for a, um, a sketch comedy show, um, full-time for a year, and that was the moment where I dared to let my practicing certificate lapse and, um, haven't looked back.
[00:05:43] James Pattison: I suppose I'd love to hear about some of the projects that you've worked on and some of your, um, creative endeavors since then. Um, and it's sounds like a, a wonderful supportive workplace that you had, um, which mightn't be everyone's experience, but it sounds like something. Tess you are currently experiencing with your career?
[00:06:02] Tess Birch: Yeah, for sure. So I, uh, finished at Monash at the end of 2016 and got a graduate job at Ashurst. I started in 2017 as a grad there, and I'm still working there now. Um. It's a great place to work. Absolutely love it. They're very supportive of me doing comedy as well. During the comedy festival. I work part-time, um, so half days or, or take annual leave.
[00:06:30] A lot of people from the firm will come to my shows as well. Um, not just during the festival, but also. Um, just ones that occur, kind of normal, ones that happen during the week. So at, at this point in time, no plans to stop being a lawyer, but definitely plans to, um, continue with the comedy. I guess in terms of how I got into it, it wasn't actually something that had even really occurred to me as an option until, until I was at Ashurst.
[00:06:59] I'm not sure if you've heard of a podcast called The Moth, which is a storytelling Yeah. Podcast based on live storytelling events. And it was in my last year at uni that I went along just as a spectator to a moth, um, event in Melbourne at the Hower in Brunswick. And they didn't have enough storytellers to kind of get through the show.
[00:07:17] And so I ended up putting my name in the hat, got up and told a story, had a real sort of rush from the. Experience of it. It was a very sort of silly, funny story and just started going back and doing, um, the moth shows as much as I could. And the host of The Moth in Melbourne is Cow Wilson, who is a very amazing comedian Australia.
[00:07:39] She's from New Zealand, but uh, based in Australia now. And um, I got chatting to Cal and she actually. Suggested, oh, have you ever thought about trying standup? And I had, it had never occurred to me that that was even something that you could just start doing. And so from there, I just figured out where there were open mics in the area and how to kind of go along and just have a crack.
[00:08:01] And that was at the start of 2018 And, yeah, haven't looked back. What was the first standup? Like how did you feel? Was it terrifying? The first one I did, which was probably a bit naive of me, but it was in the comedy competition that the comedy festival runs called Raw.
[00:08:18] Nick Musgrove: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:18] Tess Birch: And that was my first show.
[00:08:20] And it's actually an amazing first gig 'cause there's about a hundred people there and they're all really supportive and they know that everyone's really new. So. They're like really fired up for it. So it was actually my first set was great. And then I think the week after that I went to some dungeon basement on Smith Street where there was like three people and they hated me.
[00:08:37] So, um, yeah, it's the highs and lows.
[00:08:40] James Pattison: How does one start comedy.
[00:08:42] Tess Birch: Yes, that's a good question. Um, I think first of all, you need to have some jokes. Um, so I think a lot of people think that it's all quite spontaneous, just happening in the moment on stage, and certainly there are people that can do that and have those really.
[00:08:57] Great crowd work interactions, but for the most part, most things are pretty planned and people have actually written jokes and thought about how they're gonna deliver it. So, um, I tend to tell people just, you know, you need four or five minutes, um, of something and then you just need to figure out where you can do it.
[00:09:15] And there's plenty of places around where. Really anyone off the street can walk in, sign up and get up on stage. Uh, and you kind of just have to go from, from there. So it's very, it was very different to my law career. 'cause I feel like, um, starting law was very formal process of applying for clerkships and then getting into a grad position and then settling in a practice area.
[00:09:36] Um, and you really have people, uh, telling you. Sort of what to do and how to do it, whereas with comedy, um, and I, I'm sure Nick can probably attest to this as well. Um, there's no, there's no set path for you. You've just gotta figure it out.
[00:09:48] Nick Musgrove: Would that, there was a path. It's all road. There was though you
[00:09:52] Isabel Melles Taverner: probably wouldn't take it anyway.
[00:09:53] Oh no.
[00:09:54] Nick Musgrove: I'm allergic to path. Yeah,
[00:09:55] Isabel Melles Taverner: yeah. You've got the machete in, you are making your way through the forest, I think. Um, I think that's kind of wonderful though, the antithesis of comedy and law that the way that they balance each other out. Um. Do you feel like your legal skills and, um, everything you've learned at law school is in any way informing your careers in entertainment?
[00:10:16] Nick Musgrove: Yeah. Um, I think quite directly for me, um, in, in entertainment there's actually a heap of contracts. So in a literal sense, um, every time you work with an actor, you'll need a release form. Every time you, um, license music, you need to do that. Properly, but, um, probably more recently, significantly when, um, my production company does deals with typically like larger production companies or networks, you need to contemplate the million different things that might happen if the show gets up, gets made, gets licensed, gets sold, um, and.
[00:10:46] Just having the basic literacy that comes with having studied contract and practice law, um, it gives you a tremendous sense of confidence to go right. Okay. I can read this. I'm gonna read this, I'm gonna interrogate this. What I have to, uh, say about this, um, is informed by quite a lot of, um, study and experience.
[00:11:02] And sometimes it might just be that you know enough to know that you're not an expert and you need to go and get a media lawyer. Uh, but it's very edifying how often. Um. And how readily Yeah, it does, it does come up, um, in entertainment for me. So yeah, it's been, um, really rewarding to have that, that background.
[00:11:18] Tess Birch: Yeah, I think it's definitely been valuable, obviously just for that sort of business side of things. I've signed a few divorce papers at the back of comedy kicks and that sort of thing.
[00:11:28] James Pattison: Great material. Yeah.
[00:11:30] Tess Birch: Yeah. But I think just as well, um, I think in law school it definitely teaches you about writing and writing well and the importance of language and the precision of language.
[00:11:40] And really that's kind of what comedy standup comedy is. It's knowing the exact right words to craft that joke or set the scene. And so I think that, um, aspect of it has definitely been useful. And also I think just the, the side of, um. Being in law school that does encourage you to start being able to present in front of groups and I mean, not everyone becomes a barrister, but obviously there's sort of links there as well.
[00:12:05] Um, and even just being able to sort of memorize volumes of information sort of for that three and a half hour closed book exam is very handy when you have to remember an hour's worth of your own jokes for a show.
[00:12:17] Isabel Melles Taverner: Do
[00:12:17] Tess Birch: you feel like the,
[00:12:18] Isabel Melles Taverner: um, sometimes combative nature of law has made it easier to deal with?
[00:12:24] Either hecklers or rejection or any of those sorts of things.
[00:12:29] Nick Musgrove: Rejection. I could write a thesis song, so I'll jump in. Uh, yeah, like I, I mean, yeah, there's sort of two ways in which it's, um, combative. There is, yeah, the constant process of pitching ideas. Receiving feedback in a context where very few ideas get up, very few, um, even like a, you know, a really well established writer, only a very small fraction of their work gets seen on television.
[00:12:52] So there is that constant back and forth and it's quite. Argumentative and adversarial in terms of how you present ideas. So, um, especially in America where it's outrageously good fun because it's all very show busy, um, you need to convince somebody in the room with the 15 minutes you have, why your show is the most important show.
[00:13:11] At this very moment and why you are the person to tell it. And it, it truly is like almost a, um, Socratic process that is very much like grounded in what you learn in law school, where it's like, I'm here to tell you why this is the most important thing you'll make this year and why it has to be me to tell this story and why if you don't tell this story.
[00:13:27] Um, it's a huge opportunity missed. Um, and of course, um, in America they sit there, they say, I love it. It's brilliant. It's great. We're gonna do it. And then you never hear from 'em again. But it was a really good, uh, it, it is a really fun process and one that I've probably just clocked this very second was very much one that, um, law school prepared me for.
[00:13:44] James Pattison: You and Tess both wear lots of different hats and in fact, you're wearing them today, which is very funny visually. But, um, I wanna get a, a sense. Of the sorts of projects, creative projects that you've worked on?
[00:13:55] Nick Musgrove: Yeah, sure. So, um, the, the big opportunity I got was on a, um, a sketch show for Foxtel. Um, and it was, it was really incredible because of who was in it.
[00:14:04] So, um, it was, it combined some sort of new voices, both in front of and behind camera, but also like some legends of comedy. So this show had like. All in one room on day one, Gina Riley, Jane Turner, Glenn Robbins, Stephen Curry, Shane Jacobson. Wow. Um, and I could barely breathe, um, for most of that time. Um, and, uh, the show, the show didn't run forever.
[00:14:26] Like it, it had, it had a year that was effectively like bootcamp comedy training for me, writing every day, living, living the dream as I'd pictured it. Um, but what it did was you just being around those people who are very generous, kind, giving people in terms of. What they've learned over the years.
[00:14:43] Being around that for a year was like, it gave me the belief, but also gave me the, um, the training. Um, there was a day very early on, which I'll never forget where Glenn Robbins called me into his office. Um, and I'm like, oh my God, it's Russell Coy and I'm in a room with him and there's no one else here.
[00:14:56] What am I gonna do? Um, and he actually, and I'm like, why is he called me in and he'd actually just called me in. 'cause he is like, I just wanted, like, I'm getting around to everybody and talking to them about like. Comedy and like what makes you tick and, and what you know you need to do next. And he sort of, in part of this is where he says like, I can see you, like you, you know, you, you're a pretty good like cover artist.
[00:15:14] Like you can do different kinds of sketches or different kinds of tone, just like, so your journey might be to find your own tone rather than. Playing covers. Mm-hmm. You know, your whole, um, career and yeah, it was a really beautiful experience. And so that, um, yeah, gave me enough validation to go, right, okay, I'm gonna really keep pushing here and, and give it a go.
[00:15:34] Um, and I was also sort of under the illusion that every year would be. Full-time employment, um, and shows would run forever. And so, uh, it was probably in hindsight, fortunate that I didn't know that that wasn't the case. But, um, the next year I was, um, lucky enough to be in a production company, uh, on a one year placement through Screen Australia.
[00:15:51] And then I got to meet an amazing, um, indigenous storyteller by the name of Bur Monte Pryor, who's a children's laureate and an amazing storyteller, educator, um, actor, performer, writer. Um, and I had the, um. Very distinct honor of writing his life story, um, for the A, b, C on a show called Ron, kind of black.
[00:16:12] Uh, which we did over several years. Um, and it ended up on, on Netflix, which was, which was wonderful. And we're still that
[00:16:17] Isabel Melles Taverner: a nomination?
[00:16:18] Nick Musgrove: Mm. Did get some nominations. Um, it, um, love how
[00:16:21] Isabel Melles Taverner: humble you're right now sell it. It's
[00:16:25] James Pattison: Right. You're back in Australia. Well, yeah, yeah. In us. That's right.
[00:16:29] Nick Musgrove: Yeah. Okay. Lemme tell you all the, uh, all the awards that won.
[00:16:32] Uh, but no, it got an international Emmy nomination, which was amazing, which was a big thrill. Huge. Um, and, and yeah, open, open doors subsequently in my career as well. So, um, yeah, it was beautiful. It's still, it's still on Netflix and it, it's, um, I recommend it, not because I was lucky enough to co-write it, but because it's a.
[00:16:47] Beautiful. True story and a very inspiring one. One I think is very important for all Australians, um, that sheds a lot of light into what's happening right now in terms of indigenous issues in this country. And so, but it's also very funny because he's a very funny man, so yeah, I, I do recommend that one on, on Netflix.
[00:17:03] Isabel Melles Taverner: Tess, what about you? Highlights from your. Comedy career so far.
[00:17:08] Tess Birch: Definitely performing in the Melbourne International Comedy Festival is a highlight. It's always such a fun time of year. There's just so much happening and you can see sort of multiple shows every day. And I think seeing other people's shows is so inspiring.
[00:17:23] And I often find that the time I'm writing the most is kind of during that time and after that time. 'cause it just really, um, I don't know. In Invigorates me. Um, I've also performed over, um, in the Adelaide Fringe Festival, which was really fun and um, often for my Ashers job, I go over to WA for, for work.
[00:17:43] I'm a native title lawyer, so there's lots of stuff happening over, over on the West Coast and tend to perform over in Perth as well. When I go over there and there's a great comedy scene. Over in Perth. But I think, um, the thing with standup comedy is every show is just completely different. Like, it just, you never know who's in the audience, who else is gonna be on the lineup, um, how, how it's all gonna play out.
[00:18:06] So yeah, definitely highlights are just the, the little things that happen week to week and getting to. Uh, different comics who, you know, you've maybe idolized for years and seen them on tv performing in the gala or on different panel shows, different comedy shows, and then all of a sudden you are, um, opening for them.
[00:18:24] I got to open for Jam Owen a couple of years ago, so Cool. Recently have been, um, performing. On shows quite a bit with, um, people like Dave O'Neill, um, who's really fantastic. I mean, that's just very exciting. You have to sort of, I think what you were saying before, Nick, like remember to breathe and not fan, not fan girl, too much over them and be like, be professional.
[00:18:47] James Pattison: How about, how about bombing? Like, I want to know your horror stories. Life, no, life.
[00:18:52] Tess Birch: Yeah. I did a gig at an RSL. In Werribee, that was like a full on pokies venue on the highway. That's enough. Like that's already, and you were up against alarm bells,
[00:19:05] Nick Musgrove: in fairness to you. Yeah, that's a lot. And I'm seeing
[00:19:07] Tess Birch: red flags.
[00:19:08] At the time I was pretty inexperienced, so I didn't have as much range in my jokes. So lots of them were about being a lawyer or growing up in Brighton, and I didn't really have, I've got the ability now to just scrap all that and go very general in my jokes if I need to. Brilliant. Um, and they just were not having a bar of it.
[00:19:24] I think I basically got, um, a combination of just sort of completely blank expressions slash people just started talking, so,
[00:19:32] James Pattison: yeah. Um, how do you, how do you go at reading the room? You know, do you get a, are you noticing as your experience goes on, you know, a hundred gigs this year? Mm. A difference between gig one and gig a hundred in terms of you enter a room.
[00:19:45] And your, your spidey senses are telling you that it's on or it's not. Yeah.
[00:19:49] Tess Birch: Yeah. You can get a real feel from how people are reacting to if there's been people on before you and you're listening to that, or even just doing a quick sort of visual of the audience. Like are they, are they older? Are they.
[00:20:00] Younger, do they look like they're sort of more, I don't know, north side kind of hipster vibe? Or are they more like young professionals or are they working like tradespeople, that sort of thing. So, um,
[00:20:11] Nick Musgrove: I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. Someone described to me why Friday night is the craziest night.
[00:20:18] In standup or, or theater, they said normally, like the, like it's all about the dynamics of, of the crowd and who got there. And Friday night everyone's mostly worked a full week, probably raced to get there, possibly meeting people and one person's angry at the other person for being late or for not getting into the right seats or, or for not getting a drink in time.
[00:20:36] And there had, there wasn't a time, you know, to, to settle in or eat. So they're hungry. So the first half of a Friday. Notoriously bad, but if there's an interval, everybody settles. Everybody realizes the weekend, everybody like has a, has a drink or a meal and goes, okay, I'm relaxed. And typically the second half of a Friday's unreal.
[00:20:54] James Pattison: Wow.
[00:20:54] Nick Musgrove: I'm like, I, so I always, when I, whenever I go to the theater, I like, like to try and gauge that and I've often noticed that like very astute. Yeah, playwrights put their gold, save it for just after interval. It's like they'll burn it in the first half. It's not a luxury you have when you have one set you need to, you've gotta play off through.
[00:21:13] You gotta get
[00:21:13] Isabel Melles Taverner: up and be like, I know some of you are furious right now.
[00:21:16] Nick Musgrove: Yeah, if you'd like to time, but it's not about me.
[00:21:19] Isabel Melles Taverner: I wanna know. Going way back, like close your eyes, think about the times in the law building. Think about, you know, going to get coffee from the den, which was a truly horrific place.
[00:21:32] But anyway, um, I. What was your favorite subject at law school And maybe a favorite lecturer, maybe a least favorite subject in lecturer. And we can cut out that section. Nick, any favorite subject? Contracts?
[00:21:46] Nick Musgrove: Contracts. Uh, contracts taught me how difficult. This degree was gonna be, it was the wake up call I sorely needed.
[00:21:54] Um, and where it was mind bending. Um, I've decided my favorite subject was, uh, I'm not sure what it would be called now, but it's the ethics, the mandatory ethics. Yeah. Lawyers' ethics. Uh, lawyers' ethics be because that was the one time that the like. Empirical type A genius struggled.
[00:22:15] Isabel Melles Taverner: Oh, we love to see it.
[00:22:16] We love to see it. They're
[00:22:17] Nick Musgrove: waltzing through hds, an average of 90, and it gets to ethics, but they're sociopaths. They dunno what to do for one. Empathy. What is empathy? Yeah. For one hour of every week I was, I was their equal. Equal. But I also, yes, I found it. Philosophically
[00:22:34] James Pattison: interesting. I sat, you've just given me a flashback.
[00:22:36] I remember sitting in lawyers' ethics early on, like a Thursday or Friday morning, and sitting next to a guy who has looked at me and he goes, oh, I'm just here to make money.
[00:22:49] Nick Musgrove: It's a red flag
[00:22:50] James Pattison: In an ethics spl,
[00:22:52] Isabel Melles Taverner: write down, write down this name. Look for it in the paper, the C-E-O-C-E-O of a bank, James Jeff Bezos.
[00:22:59] Nick Musgrove: Interesting.
[00:23:00] Isabel Melles Taverner: Um, least favorite subject.
[00:23:03] Nick Musgrove: I think property because if
[00:23:06] Isabel Melles Taverner: God contract, oh my God, property is every time does this come up? We have someone on the podcast property is either the stumbling block or like the hurdle that someone like leaps over. People either love it or hate it, like no one's in the middle on.
[00:23:21] Yeah. But it
[00:23:21] Nick Musgrove: was just so, um. Intangible, ironically, for something that primarily deals with land.
[00:23:28] Yeah.
[00:23:28] Um, it really, um, yeah, but it was probably the most important, I can see why you, uh, taught it probably in second year or first year, depending on the nature of the course, but
[00:23:37] James Pattison: or whether you fail it. Yes.
[00:23:38] Second and third, how many times
[00:23:40] Nick Musgrove: one does property? Uh, but it, it opens that whole idea up of abstract thinking. Um, which yeah, was painful but useful. Very useful.
[00:23:50] Tess Birch: Tess. Favorite subject, I think my favorite subject was an elective called Public Policy and Regulation. And the reason for that is we had a class where one, we had a guest lecturer, and I think it was Ari Fryberg, and he brought in a giant chocolate cake, and he put it on the table and he said, divide the cake.
[00:24:09] And that was it. And then our whole class was spent implementing these public policy theories. We'd been learning to figure out how we should divide this chocolate cake kind of fairly, I guess. Um, and it was like, who's gonna, who's gonna do the cutting? What do we do if the pieces aren't all the same?
[00:24:25] What do we do if some people aren't in class today or if they don't like cake? And it went on, it went for an hour and a half figuring out how to cut this cake. Um. I also like liked crim 'cause I had Jonathan Cloth and he is just the funniest person and he would just, I think I had a whole document. Um, instead of it being notes, it was just funny things that he said in the lecture.
[00:24:49] James Pattison: Was it Simpson's quotes? Yeah. I'm sure it would be Simpson's references. Probably some,
[00:24:53] Tess Birch: yeah. But it just really, I. Feel like that really helps bring it, bring it all to life. Anything you like dreaded going to any classes you didn't like? Probably equity because I was like, I just have no idea what this is, what they're even talking about.
[00:25:07] Like there was ever a subject where it's just like you've just gotta get the vibe. I think that was probably equity. I also didn't love, love property either, which is ironic given now I'm sort of a native title and planning and environment lawyer. So. Sort of funny how that works out.
[00:25:22] Isabel Melles Taverner: I, I would love to know, was your, um, interest in comedy ever a problem when you were at law school?
[00:25:29] Nick Musgrove: There was an occasion where I and my fellow law review comedians came perilously close and quite rightly, uh, to being expelled, um, from the, this beautiful law school. Um, so what happened was we, there was a tradition of, um, speaking before lectures about. Uh, the upcoming comedy review just to let people know where it was and when it was and come along.
[00:25:52] And, um, I think a tradition had evolved that little sketches would get played out before the lecture. Um, in that nice, clean five minutes, you know where announcements are made, um, and. It was decided not by me, in fairness to me, that what we would do is stage a mock fight in which somebody was to get up, seemingly unrelated to the law review and make an announcement about something and someone else was to start heckling them, and that heckle would evolve into a.
[00:26:19] A funny fight that would look quite comedic and slapstick and silly, and everybody would go, what a, what? A charming and delightful little ski. This was, let us see more, uh, at the law review. And so, um, it was actually my business partner got up and, um, made the announcement and he deliberately, he's a very good actor.
[00:26:36] He is done a lot of TV acting. Um. Like presented as extremely nervous straight away. So he is like, oh, hi everybody. Um, I just wanted to make a quick announcement about, um, some of the policies at, uh, and we had planted the rest of the cast in the audience as heckler, right? So someone's like, shut up, we don't wanna hear about it.
[00:26:54] He is like, oh no, I'll just be, I'll just be a, a second. I just wanted to say that. And then we planted counter hecklers to go give her a chance what he's saying matters, like, and so everybody started to get quite tense, not what we'd realized yet. And then, um. Uh, a friend of mine who's now a very good criminal barrister, um, it was his role to initiate the fight.
[00:27:14] So he stood up and he goes, I've had just about enough of this. And he goes up to do a fake hit of, um, of Nick Russell, my business partner, and. Just the, the coming together of like them being very good physical performers and the angles and lack of line of sight, it dead set. Looked like he got up and put a fist straight through his face and knocked him over, and everybody was horrified.
[00:27:39] And before we could reveal that this was all a prank gone wrong, um, a mature age student in a leather jacket with a fearsome looking ponytail sprung up from the second row. Leaped over a chair, grabbed the guy, uh, grabbed my friend. Who had done the hitting and put him up against the wall. Oh my God. And my friend was really, mate, it's fine.
[00:27:59] It's fine, it's all fine. He's like, it's not fine. That's never okay. And I'm like, oh. And so, um, the performer who was on the ground picked himself up. We dusted ourselves off. We established that this wasn't a real fight. There was this awful like complete silence. And then my friend said. If you think that was funny.
[00:28:19] Come along to see the law review and then we all left the room. Um, uh, they were in hysterics. I was deeply worried as is my want in life. Um, and we returned to our lear in the law basement, um, long made rest. Uh, and I said, guys, do you reckon that was potentially problematic? Do you think we should go and speak to the very lovely lecturer?
[00:28:41] Who just watched what he thought was an all in brawl happening in his class, and, and the other guys went, no, I don't think it'd be all right. Everyone knew it was a joke. I'm like, I reckon we should go talk to him. Um, and they're like, okay, we'll, we'll, we'll go and have a chat. I'm sure it's fine, but you know, just in case we'll smooth it over so we knock on his door.
[00:28:56] Um, and. We open it and we see he's in an absolute crisis meeting with several other lectures, part crisis meeting, part like psychology session about what had just happened. I said, oh, you from the National Law Review, we just wanted to talk about what happened. He's like. You may enter, and I'm like, oh, this is, that's a, that is a terrible
[00:29:18] Isabel Melles Taverner: opening line.
[00:29:19] And I
[00:29:19] Nick Musgrove: went to reach for the seat on the other side of the desk and he goes, you can stand. I'm like, okay, we're big trouble here. And he is like, I'm about to call the dean. And report this. You've got about 10 minutes to tell me why we're not expelling you.
[00:29:33] James Pattison: Oh my God.
[00:29:35] Isabel Melles Taverner: So as Tess, as Tess said earlier, um, read the room.
[00:29:39] Yeah, just read the room.
[00:29:42] Nick Musgrove: So I just, you know, doubled down with more jokes, but no. So we launched into this very, um, contr. And, uh, intrinsically pathetic explanation as to this was an incredibly well intended sketch that fell victim to poor line of sight and, um, over competent physical acting. And we apologized profusely.
[00:30:03] And, um, one of the lecturers who was sitting there in this. Council of Crisis said, well, don't quit your day job. 'cause that wasn't funny. I'm like, well, I can and I will. I didn't say that. Name, him
[00:30:15] Isabel Melles Taverner: name. Name the lecturer
[00:30:17] Nick Musgrove: I'll name. I'll name the lecturer who was very generous and didn't call the dean, and that was the delightful Colin Campbell.
[00:30:24] Oh Colin, who did not deserve wonderful any of this. But to his credit and in his infinite kindness he said. It's okay. I get it. I actually once made a speech at at 21st and it massively backfired and I think the grandma cried. So like I get that sometimes he, maybe we should cut that out to preserve his opinion.
[00:30:41] Yes. Let's call it. But he said, I get it. It can go, it can go wrong. I appreciate it. We won't take any further action. And I think he actually even like went to the show because he was a very kind man. Legend, lovely. But to his credit, when we, um. Like if you, you could for a time listen to the online lecture version of this disaster.
[00:31:01] He actually, like as a performer filled in for the home listeners, what on earth had just happened? You, for those of you listen home, I'm just gonna describe what's happened for you. So that is magical. Yeah, that is, that is a consummate professional. Right. And
[00:31:15] James Pattison: that is student first. Oh, that's beautiful.
[00:31:18] Nick Musgrove: Yeah. We, we, yeah. It may have been very different. We may have had to quit our day jobs. Incidentally, the day job was being a student, so it was not lucrative. Uh, but uh, yes, we managed, we managed to survive the ordeal.
[00:31:29] Isabel Melles Taverner: Um, I mean, I do, I do have to ask Tess if you have any. Favorite classic lawyer
[00:31:35] Tess Birch: jokes, favorite classic lawyer jokes.
[00:31:38] I often will just open my sets by saying, I'm surprised it's taken me this long to mention that I'm a lawyer, like straight off the bat because I feel like all lawyers will just love to tell you that straight off. Yeah. Love it.
[00:31:51] Isabel Melles Taverner: Love it. That's beautiful. I, I would love to know if we have got students listening who are thinking about a creative pathway.
[00:31:59] Maybe thinking about writing or comedy or something else, and, you know, they're thinking about the fact that that might be a, a risky move. Or maybe people are telling them, why would you do that? You've spent all this time studying law just go into law. What would you say to them?
[00:32:16] Nick Musgrove: It's a really, uh. Yeah, it's a, a very pertinent question for me.
[00:32:19] That's something I've wrestled with a lot. Um, there's a lot that's wonderful and beautiful about the legal profession that I miss. Um, I don't think you'll find many more opportunities, opportunities to be immersed in brilliant people than in a law firm or in a legal environment. And that's something that I miss.
[00:32:35] So that's, so something that's not to be taken for granted. Um, it's, it's really wonderful being, um, like immersed in brilliant minds. It's a really special thing and something that I think is really special about the law. Um, a life outside the law. Um, I think that the key practical bit of advice would be to think carefully about how to make it sustainable.
[00:32:53] It's really difficult to embark upon a creative pursuit because it's so uncertain. There is no clear pathway, at least initially. Um. It's thinking strategically about how to make it, um, sustainable. Um, and like Tess, that's incredible the way you've made it sustainable, and it means you can continue to do the thing you love, um, without fear that it's going to become too difficult or, um, that it will, it will start to potentially become a, a burden.
[00:33:20] Um, so it took me a while to figure out, so I've worked in restaurants, I've worked in bookstores, and um, I did all of that. Um. And my parents were kind enough not to remind me that there was, you know, six or seven years of, uh, tertiary education behind me that weren't being applied at fonder Mexican restaurant.
[00:33:38] Uh, and that's the second clue as to who the other guest was. Shout
[00:33:42] out too.
[00:33:43] Uh, but, um, yeah, my old firm very kindly gave me a couple of, um. Three month gigs as a second deed, some of their clients. And that opened my eyes to the idea that there are actually ways that you could practically use your law degree.
[00:33:56] And I know, um, organizations like, um, is it Lex Loco Exist? Lex Loco, like basically where you can be a contractor for short term legal gigs. It might be a really good way to get yourself going, pay the, pay the bills, get yourself set up. Whilst you're pursuing your creative endeavors, which once they catch on, like become self-sustaining.
[00:34:14] Um, for me, um, I did that initially and then started a production company with a similar um, sort of story. Um, my business partner Nick Russell was at mals. He's an actor. I was admit I was a writer. We said together, maybe we can, um, make this work. Um, and so, uh, we, we started doing some corporate work that was still in film and television.
[00:34:33] It was still script writing, directing, producing, um, lots of sort of, um, sports media work for, um, places like the A FL, which still allows you to cut your teeth in the field. You want to be in, sharpen the skills, but also paid bills. Um, didn't mean for that to rhyme, but sounds like a good slogan for life.
[00:34:50] So our journey in terms of like making our creative pursuit sustainable because inevitably they are up and down was to have a, a. Media production company that makes it work. So, um, that keeps us busy in the absence of his acting opportunities or my writing opportunities, which are finite and unpredictable.
[00:35:06] Um, and so yeah, that's why I can now continue to comfortably pursue, um, my passion. Um, and it's slowly becoming most of what I do. But, um, yeah, the. The tricky thing was how to make it sustainable. So, um, everyone will have a different idea as to how to do that. But my advice would be that, um, you may quickly become miserable if you do what I did, which was to say, I'm gonna quit and I'll have to succeed if I write every day and put myself in a corner.
[00:35:32] Um, and just, and just make it happen. I'll have, I'll manifest it, but in, in. Film and television, for better or for worse. Like you're not the key decision maker that determines whether your work gets seen. Um, and everyone's gonna have an opinion on your work, which might not be favorable. And so you just dunno when you're gonna get that first break and you dunno when, um, that next opportunity will come.
[00:35:52] So finding a way to make it sustainable in the meantime, um, is, is the advice I would, I would give.
[00:35:57] James Pattison: It's interesting also to hear you both. Um, the way that you speak about your careers is almost like, um, structured creativity.
[00:36:04] Nick Musgrove: Yep.
[00:36:05] James Pattison: Um, which seems the antithesis of creativity. But, um, someone I've heard talk about this is, um, obviously a good friend of mine, um, John Legend, um, who he, my close
[00:36:15] Isabel Melles Taverner: personal friend, John Legend.
[00:36:15] That's right.
[00:36:17] James Pattison: And he works a nine to five. He's, he goes into the studio at nine o'clock. And leaves at five, and if he comes, whatever he comes up with in that workday, he'll use or he'll discard. Um, and I think building that, um, that structure to be playful and to experiment is just sounds so important for someone with a bit of a creative bent.
[00:36:39] Um, Nick, I know in your days when you would, you, you were testing the water to see, was writing something you could make a real go of and, um, I believe you asked your work, uh, for. Some time, a day, a week, was it? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Um, can you take us through how, how you approached 'em and, and what you said in hindsight, greatest way to
[00:36:59] Nick Musgrove: not endure yourself to your employer, but they were, they were truly amazing about it.
[00:37:03] Um, when I settled in the commercial litigation group at Minters, um, I asked whether I could do so four, uh, four days a week. They were really amazing about it. And also like as lawyers. They perceived it, um, with the framework in place of a formal request for flexible working arrangements, so they understood what I was asking.
[00:37:23] Um, and that that request would be covered by people who wanted to do things like writing once a week, not just, um, potentially like managing family or other, other responsibilities. Um, and so. Through 2012. Yeah, I, I wrote on a Wednesday, um, and recorded my time. This my, my time recording goes a long way back because my father is a lawyer and he gave me his time sheet in year 10 and said, fill it in.
[00:37:50] And if you stop for a phone call or if you, if you leave the room, the clock off, clock back on and you'll see how hard it is to really do one full hour's work. Um, and. So that was when I was 16. I'm now, I've doubled that, um, and still, uh, record my time less frequently because it is nice sometimes to just, like, if you feel you're in the zone and you don't need to keep yourself accountable, that's nice too.
[00:38:12] But if you're not being effective to actually start measuring your time, not the worst trick to have to have figured out. Um, but yeah, so they, they supported me at miners in, in doing that.
[00:38:20] James Pattison: It sounds like you really used that time extremely effectively. Uh, you weren't using this as a day off?
[00:38:28] Nick Musgrove: No. Yeah, it definitely wasn't.
[00:38:29] Um, and it tended to be, and I'm sure you can empathize with this test, that it's like, um, yeah. The day off you've, you've already spent the night before, so you still find a way to fit in your five days, uh, notwithstanding that the Wednesday was. Carved out for writing time, but it meant that by the time you got to your desk Wednesday morning, you're like, right.
[00:38:47] I worked pretty hard Tuesday night to make this happen. And, um, there are various sacrifices in play that mean this is really important that I, that I really write like and write as best I can. It's also a great way to combat writer's block to go, right, I've gotta make this Wednesday work. Uh, so yeah, it was, it was a great part of the journey, I think.
[00:39:04] James Pattison: Tess, what is it about law, practicing law that you love? What keeps you doing this day to day? You wouldn't do that if you didn't love it.
[00:39:12] Tess Birch: Yeah, that's a good question. The area I'm in is very people focused because I'm working for, um, project companies and government getting new projects, um, either built or decommissioned.
[00:39:27] And so we're really working with local communities, um, first Nations people. It feels just very sort of real, real and tangible, and so. I really like that aspect. And when I was at uni, I don't think, I don't know if Monash had a planning and environment subject, um, or a native title subject, but um, it's just an area that I sort of then fell into doing my grad rotations and just absolutely.
[00:39:53] Loved it and it really made law, I guess, come alive for me. And so that's what's kept me in it, I think. And obviously just what you were saying before, Nick, about the, the people in a law firm as well. It is, yeah. Really great culture, great clients. It sounds like I've drunk the Kool-Aid, which I have, but it, it is true.
[00:40:12] Isabel Melles Taverner: Is there anything that you wanna share with students or recent alumni that you feel like you wish you had? Like someone had told you, you know, like, I know that's such a cliched question, but looking back, what is it that you wish you'd heard someone say or shared with you?
[00:40:29] Nick Musgrove: I had a thought about that recently.
[00:40:30] If I can jump in. Um, which is about, um, picking the type of law you're actually interested in. Because I think it, it's probably changed, but when I was going through law school, I think there was a bias towards, uh, commercial law. Um, and I think it's because of the clerkship. Program as it then was, which was in third year, it was almost a bit of peer pressure.
[00:40:52] It was like, right, everybody seems to be applying for seasonal clerkship, so I better do that. And that's mostly a commercial legal offering to do them. And if you do them, you're actually inadvertently, you may have chosen a little more than you realize by, um. By then, like hopefully getting a clerkship and then doing the month and then I'm not sure whether they still do it, but then potentially getting a job offer.
[00:41:11] Um, what started as like a month, giving it a go because it seems like that was the important thing to do in third year. You've inadvertently potentially chosen commercial law for your career. Um, and it's great. Uh, but it's obviously one of many areas of practice available and so I, I think, yeah, it might've been handed to here just.
[00:41:28] Like when everybody starts applying for clerkships, think about whether you would be interested in criminal law or, um, immigration law or, um, all the very, you know, amazing different facets of the law that you could be applying your trade in. Um, so that you don't necessarily get caught in the funnel that like.
[00:41:46] Takes you to amazing firms, but firms in a very particular field.
[00:41:50] Isabel Melles Taverner: I think that's a really great message to have, um, shared with the students. What about you, Tess? Anything that you wish, you know,
[00:41:56] Tess Birch: someone had told you? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think when I did start doing clerkships, I felt like I had to be, you know, quite serious and really going down like.
[00:42:06] An m and a path or and being really across all these sort of like issues in the business community and that sort of thing where it wasn't really me at all. And I remember my early years in law firms sort of dressing very corporate and really trying to be a particular type of person that just didn't feel, didn't feel authentic.
[00:42:24] And I think it was actually not until my work introduced this dress for your day policy and I realized, okay, I don't actually have to wear a pencil skirt, um, and heels. Anymore. And I, I feel like that actually had a impact on me just in terms of realizing, okay, it's actually fine to be yourself in this corporate environment and obviously you have to do a good job and take your job seriously, but, um, it doesn't have to be so serious.
[00:42:51] All the time. That was a good lesson for me, and that's been a big factor in being able to sort of bring comedy, um, into my time at Ashes and be very open about it there as well because, um, they, they obviously do really like that side of me. As, as an employee, I guess. And, and they facilitate opportunities for me to do that by like hosting the Christmas party or they'll have comedy, um, networking nights where they'll get people to perform and, and that sort of thing.
[00:43:20] So, um, yeah, I guess just, uh, realizing that, um, you can be yourself still. That's something I wish I'd known a lot sooner. Yeah.
[00:43:30] James Pattison: Uh, Nick and Tess, we'd love to know for people who are interested in following what you're up to. Uh, what's next Tess?
[00:43:36] Tess Birch: Yeah, for sure. So, um, the big thing coming up next for me will be my first solo show at the Melbourne Comedy Festival in April next year.
[00:43:44] Awesome. I think the working title for the show is Work-Life Balance, so probably very on point with what we've been discussing today. Um, but yeah, it would be great if anyone wants to come along to that. It will be up on the Comedy Festival website, uh, in not too long.
[00:43:58] James Pattison: Nick, what's, what's next for you?
[00:44:00] What's on the horizon? Good question.
[00:44:02] Nick Musgrove: If only on you. Um, it's, uh, so yeah, with writing, it's either writing on other people's shows or developing your own. So, um, at the moment, um, going into a. Two week development, uh, writer's room, uh, with the A, B, C for a, um, a comedy. Um, beyond that, we, we write a couple of episodes on the strength of what we've, um, together come up with in the room and we submit that back to them.
[00:44:23] And, uh, we sincerely hope that becomes a, uh, an a b, C comedy. Um. But that's not up to me. Uh, and then I've written a screenplay. I wrote it during the first lockdown thinking, oh, we're open and America's closed. Maybe I'll write something with an American star and like, you know, we can film it in 2020. So it's now we're approaching 2023 and, um, we have the production partners in place.
[00:44:45] Um, and we have some, uh, wonderful cast attached. So now we're into the financing phase of hopefully. Rolling cameras on a, on a feature film next year
[00:44:53] James Pattison: and we will watch with interest. Uh, Nick Musgrove and Tess Birch, thanks so much for joining Life after Law School.
[00:44:59] Nick Musgrove: Thank you. Thank you very much for having us
[00:45:05] Isabel Melles Taverner: screenwriter. Nick Musgrove and comedian Tess Birch, life After Law School comes to you from the faculty of law at Monash University for law courses. Chances to partner with us and more head to monash.edu/law.