The Scarlet Letter | Season 2 | Episode 1 | Alexandra Saltis

What happens when assisted reproduction meets law? Monash Law alum Alexandra Saltis, a once curious high school ethics student, shares her journey toward her role as a Compliance and Legal Support Officer at the Victorian Assisted Reproductive Treatment Authority (VARTA). She unpacks how she found her way into the world of reproductive law and what it’s like helping regulate IVF clinics navigate shifting donor conception laws. She also reflects on feminism in her daily life, the impact of working in an all-women office, and the legal twists of modern surrogacy.

First published 2017.

The Scarlet Letter podcast is produced by the Feminist Legal Studies Group. This podcast features interviews with feminists connected to the law, discussing their life, work, and feminist perspectives. It's perfect for anyone passionate about feminist legal scholarship.

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Transcript | The Scarlet Letter | Season 2 |Episode 1 | Alexandra Saltis

Tamara Wilkinson: [00:00:00] Good morning. We are Tamara Wilkinson and Ronli Sifris. And welcome to this episode of The Scarlet Letter, the monthly podcast of the Feminist Legal Studies Group at Monash University's Faculty of Law. Today, we're joined by Alexandra Soltis, who is one of our Monash Law graduates and the Compliance and Legal Support Officer at the Victorian Assisted Reproductive Treatment Authority.

Ronli Sifris: Alexandra first started at VARTA in 2016. She has a particular interest in health and medical law, family law and bioethics. Her current work at VARTA includes processing applications for the import and export of embryos and gametes and aiding in the implementation of the new legislative scheme taking effect in 2017.

Tamara Wilkinson: Thank you so much for joining us today, Alexandra.

Ronli Sifris: . [00:01:00] Perhaps you can start by telling us a little bit about how you first became interested in issues relating to the regulation of reproduction, since that's obviously or maybe not so obviously, what VARTA does here in Victoria.

Alexandra Saltis: Yeah, so that's exactly what we do.

So we register and regulate the IVF clinics. And in terms of how I started being interested in it, I think really going back to high school, I developed a little bit of an interest because we did a bit of an ethics kind of unit. And we talked about things like like abortion and IVF and how those things might be controversial.

And I think that really planted the seed. And then I was, I also did an arts degree at Monash and as part of that, I did a bioethics unit and it just and I did some units, some electives as well as part of my law degree in that area.

Ronli Sifris: And so can you tell us a little bit then about what VARTA does and what you do at VARTA?

Alexandra Saltis: Yeah. So, as I said, VARTA registers the [00:02:00] IVF clinics and In terms of that regulatory role, I'm really involved in making sure that the clinics are compliant with all of their legislative obligations. And we give quite a bit of guidance to the clinics about all of that. And also if there are any, potential breaches of the act then we go in and investigate as well and report to the health minister.

So I'm involved in that whole process. And also VARTA from 1st of March this year has also acquired a new set of statutory functions, which revolve around the donor conception registers which is intense as you can imagine. Yeah, we take in applications for information from donors and conceived people and their parents and to obtain information from those registers.

Ronli Sifris: Has there been a lot of information a lot of interest about?

Alexandra Saltis: There's been a lot of interest. The legislative changes themselves really sparked a lot of media.

Ronli Sifris: Maybe you can explain to our to anyone listening just [00:03:00] briefly what those legislative changes are.

Alexandra Saltis: Definitely. Previously in Victoria, there was a legislative model that really revolved around consent.

So if a donor conceived person wanted information about their sperm or egg donor, then The donor would have to consent to the release of that information post the 1st of March this year. It actually there's no need anymore for the donors to consent. The information goes out after the donor's notified that it's going out and after the donor has an opportunity to make a contact preference, which, yeah, stipulates how or if they want contact with the applicant.

So those are the significant changes.

Tamara Wilkinson: Yes. So do you think now that there are, this consent approach has been reversed? Do you think there'll be fewer people donating? Or do you think it won't, have that much impact?

Alexandra Saltis: Yeah, it's actually quite interesting. There's been no significant Yeah.

in the number of donors with every new legislative change that's come through in this area. [00:04:00] Okay. So as the rights of donors have been restricted, or they've been given fewer less of a say under the legislation no, there hasn't been fewer donors. So it's still, you the clinics are still recruiting them.

And it's interesting because a lot of the donors, like I think when I started this work, I expected a lot of donors to be quite angry at the legislative changes. And we've actually had so many positive experience with, experiences with donors. And a lot of them have really embraced the opportunity and said to us, really, if I'd had the choice back then to not be anonymous, then I might've actually chosen not to be anonymous.

Yeah.

Ronli Sifris: How interesting. Yeah.

That's fantastic. Do you have any sense of the response of the families of the donors?

Alexandra Saltis: Yeah. Yeah. So at VARTA, we offer counselling services as well under this legislative scheme. And There's been a mixed response from the families of donors.

Some of them are so willing to embrace all of it, and we've had some [00:05:00] really lovely stories where the donor's family and the donor conceived person's family Have, events together at Christmas and celebrate birthdays together and all of that. But of course you have the opposite end of the spectrum as well.

And some donors are quite frightened of talking to their families about it. Because they've never told anyone that they donated.

So there was a lot of secrecy back then. Yes. We're dealing with the repercussions

Tamara Wilkinson: Yeah. It's interesting because not that this is my area of expertise at all, but from my understanding of adoption laws in Australia, they're really moving towards this idea of transparency and not the model where you'll never know who your parents, your birth parents are, and you have a lot of trouble trying to find them.

So it's really interesting.

Ronli Sifris: I think the really interesting contentious part of this law is the retrospective aspect of it. So it's not just that moving forward, people will have a right to identify information. It's that people donated at a time when they thought they were going to be anonymous.

And then suddenly they're not.

Alexandra Saltis: That's definitely the contentious part of it. It's [00:06:00] that, and there's also donors who didn't realize that that they were. that they could ever be identified, they were really working on this basis of I will always be anonymous.

There's never going to be a chance of anything else.

Tamara Wilkinson: It would be quite confronting, I imagine, if you donated 30 years ago or to then get this letter in the mail or however they

Alexandra Saltis: And a lot of donor conceived people are just, they're so respectful of that. A lot of them really, they have this right to information that they do exercise, but at the same time, they're respectful of the donor's privacy.

And if it is a I don't want contact and I don't want to, to send any emails or receive any letters, then then they're very aware of that.

Tamara Wilkinson: That's really interesting. It's quite a large decision that they've made to change the law in that way. I imagine a lot of thought must have gone into that.

Yeah.

Alexandra Saltis: And there were a lot of submissions from donor conceived people when the laws were when the committee was reevaluating them. [00:07:00] Yeah. Yeah. So it was really based on. on research and on the submissions of these people. So it is quite, quite a human law, it's really quite in touch with the needs of this group of people.

Tamara Wilkinson: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Excellent. Alexandra, we know that you identify quite strongly as a feminist. Can you tell us a little bit about what feminism means to you on a personal level?

Alexandra Saltis: Yes. I had a little bit of think about this cause I thought you might ask me this. And look, I really think in terms of the way that I see it anyway, and this is not a particularly academic take on it or anything like that, but I think it's really about freedom and equality of thought and choice and action.

And as the, knowledge around feminism grows and the academia around it grows I think we're all trying, we're starting to understand as well, that it's very much about men as well as women and having that freedom and equality for everyone. For both sexes and both genders to do as they as their conscience tells them, basically as they, [00:08:00] yeah making a free choice that any person would be able to make without any bias or any judgment or anything like that.

Ronli Sifris: Yeah. Yeah. And so then how do you feel that feminism affects your own life on a daily basis?

Alexandra Saltis: Yeah. That's a good question. I think, really in my own life, I think I've surrounded myself with a lot of women. And I know my friends and I are very supportive of each other. And I think it's really, it's been quite revolutionary in that respect, like just among us.

But in, a more more serious way.

Ronli Sifris: You know, having a strong feminist support network to help you achieve your goals is amazing. It's fantastic. Yeah.

Alexandra Saltis: And I think a lot of it is about I work in a except Darren, our chief finance officer everyone else in our office except poor Darren. We are an all female office. And so I think that as well has helped. I think I'd take it for granted how wonderful it is to work with such an intelligent bunch of women. [00:09:00] And a supportive bunch of women. We, there's a real sense that we are doing really good work and I, as I say, I think I take it for granted a bit how supportive the workplace is.

And I, I think a big part of that is there's no kind of bias about women not being able to do a certain thing. There's no, inequality between people in the workplace either. It is, everybody is equal. Yeah. Yeah. So I think in that way, feminism is quite strong just in my everyday work life.

The fact that we are an office of women.

Tamara Wilkinson: Yeah.

Alexandra Saltis: And also, I was brought up in a family where my grandparents and my parents always just told me that whatever a man can do, you can do, if not better. And that. I think has stayed with me. I never discount an opportunity just because I'm a woman, which is, that's really important, I think.

Tamara Wilkinson: Yeah, absolutely.

Alexandra Saltis: And it's hard to do sometimes in this world as well, in the world we live in.

Tamara Wilkinson: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's very true. So [00:10:00] would you say there's any sort of connection between the work you do at VARTA and your feminist outlook on life?

Alexandra Saltis: Yeah I think, we deal with so many issues and, even more than that, we deal with reproductive issues and women are at the center of that.

So issues like surrogacy, you've got the competing arguments of commerciality and altruism and, And, those are arguments that have elements of feminism in them.

Ronli Sifris: Although interesting that you frame them as competing arguments because some people would actually say that, that really it's exploitative to insist on a lack of compensation.

And so the exploitation doesn't come from the compensation but from the altruism. Yes. Yeah, I think it's a bit more nuanced than that.

Alexandra Saltis: Yes. Yeah. And the nuances of the challenge in that area, definitely. And yeah, and you also have [00:11:00] the domestic versus international law as well, which is.

can be very challenging because you have women coming from different backgrounds, different economic, different social positions, and that is really A feminist issue as well. I think. Yeah.

Tamara Wilkinson: Yeah. I read an article. I think it was this morning actually about a lady in the United States who was a surrogate she was compensated and as part of her contract, she was not allowed to see her husband.

The babies, there were two, there were twins. They thought they were twins after they were born. And so what had happened is that she had a very rare event, actually conceived her own child whilst already pregnant with the surrogate child and had unknowingly had her child taken away from her. So I imagine.

Do you ever deal with this sort of mind boggling I read that article.

Alexandra Saltis: Yeah, as did I. Yeah, I read it yesterday. Yeah, those kind of mind boggling dilemmas. [00:12:00] We do. Yes, we really do. And quite often in in our board making decisions about imports and exports to and from Victoria the, the issue of surrogacy does come up because people will make an application for, to, to export gametes or embryos that might be used in a surrogacy overseas.

Yeah. So in terms of our general monitoring function, we really do keep a close eye on what's happening with international surrogacy and surrogacy laws overseas. Yeah. Yeah. But it can be quite mind boggling. Yeah. We never have a boring moment in our office ever.

Tamara Wilkinson: I can imagine. Yeah.

Ronli Sifris: Yeah.

Tamara Wilkinson: And just before we wrap up are you able to give us a very brief overview of what the surrogacy laws in Australia are at the moment?

Do Australian women get compensated? For surrogacy?

Alexandra Saltis: No. Surrogacy laws as far as I'm aware, are state by state at the moment and there is a big push for a a federal law to be put through with respect to surrogacy, because there is this [00:13:00] extraterritorial issue now as well and New South Wales has a law which New South Wales or Queensland, Romelia, you might know, that has an, I think it's New South Wales.

Ronli Sifris: There are a couple of jurisdictions that have an extraterritorial criminal offence.

Alexandra Saltis: But Victoria isn't one of them at the moment. And as it stands at the moment, a surrogate can't obtain any material benefit or advantage in Victoria. But they can be paid for certain prescribed costs, like medical expenses and legal expenses.

And any surrogacy arrangement that's carried out with the help of an IVF clinic in Victoria needs to be approved by the patient review panel. So that's the process at the moment and to be approved it, it needs to be an altruistic non commercial arrangement and it also needs to be gestational.

The surrogate mothers. Because own eggs can't be used. They have to be either the commissioning mothers or donor, yeah, exactly, donor eggs.

Ronli Sifris: [00:14:00] Okay. Yeah.

Tamara Wilkinson: Excellent.

Ronli Sifris: Wow. Thank you so much for joining us, Alexandra. That's given us a lot of food for thought, I think. It's been a real pleasure to talk to you and hear about your work and the great work that VARTA is doing.

Tamara Wilkinson: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Pleasure. And thank you all for listening to this episode of The Scarlet Letter. You can catch us again next month on SoundCloud, iTunes, or on our blog, which is found at feministlegalstudies. wordpress. com. And don't forget to subscribe to The Scarlet Letter to make sure you never miss an episode.