What We Haven't Learned Yet: Indigenous Perspectives and Meaningful Change
Let's Talk Teaching Podcast
Season 4 - Episode 2
6 July 2026
Embedding Indigenous perspectives in schools isn’t just about what we teach - it’s about what educators themselves still need to understand, and why meaningful change often begins there. Beyond curriculum content, this conversation explores history, reflection, relationships, and responsibility in education.
Transcript
Rebecca Cooper [00:00]: This episode includes discussion of Indigenous education, including experiences of bias and discrimination. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to Let's Talk Teaching, the podcast created by teachers for teachers.
Jaya Blandthorn [00:17]: There's so many different complexities that come with being a young Aboriginal person, and I think if schools are aware of that, they're able to actually implement things to help us.
Jay Phillips [00:26]: For teachers to get that pre-training while they're in universities means that they can go out and be able to articulate, you know, these really challenging concepts and perhaps be change agents.
Rebecca Cooper [00:40]: We talk a lot about embedding Indigenous perspectives in schools, but often the conversation stops at what we add to the curriculum rather than confronting what we don't yet understand about our own history. In schools, that can look like Acknowledgement of Country at assemblies, lessons on colonisation, or a cultural awareness session during the year.
On paper, it looks like progress, but it doesn't always lead to meaningful change for students or teachers, or shift how this work is understood in practice.
Jaya Blandthorn [01:11]: I've had lots of comments about, oh, the students don't really— they get triggered by listening to these things. History is triggering. It should be triggering.
Jay Phillips [01:18]: So when you think about what it means for teachers today to embed Indigenous perspectives and acknowledge colonisation, people can't start where they are at the moment to do that because all of those histories are left out of the narrative.
Rebecca Cooper [01:35]: What often gets missed are the deeper questions: how we position ourselves as educators, how our own understanding of history shapes what we teach, and where this work actually begins.
Jay Phillips [01:48]: So the way I teach and the way I do pre-service teacher education is to firstly build with foundational knowledge. So for students to actually develop for themselves an investment in the very history that have created the traumas for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, but our survival also represents the strength.
Rebecca Cooper [02:15]: I'm Associate Professor Rebecca Cooper, Assistant Dean of Initial Teacher Education at Monash University's Faculty of Education. Joining me today is Professor Jay Phillips, Deputy Dean of Indigenous Strategy at Monash University, whose work focuses on how teachers engage and at times disengage with Indigenous perspectives.
And Jaya Blandthorne, a Monash Nursing and Midwifery graduate and Wamba Wamba woman, working on the Paabanata Initiative, embedding Indigenous knowledge systems into school learning through community engagement. Jay, when we talk about embedding Indigenous perspectives in schools, what do teachers need to understand first?
Jay Phillips [02:57]: Before I go on, I'd like to acknowledge I'm a Waka Waka, Goorung Goorung woman from Southeast Queensland, and I'm working on the Kulin Nations who are the traditional owners of this country. And I live on Wiradjuri Country, so I do FIFO.
I think it's important to position ourselves where we are before we can start talking about why and what we do on, on country and on place. I've been at Monash since August 2024, and what I found when I came here, that there was virtually nothing happening at a fundamental level.
So your question about what's happening in schools is really follows what pre-service teachers are getting trained to do. So there's work that needs to be done for the teachers of the teachers of the future.
Rebecca Cooper [03:49]: So is that where we start, Jay?
Jay Phillips [03:52]: That's certainly where we can identify where we put our feet first, right? But we need to actually look back, all of us, and particularly non-Indigenous peoples. And again, I will say non-Indigenous is not just white Australians.
They are anyone who has migrated migrated to this country from 1788 and across the 237 years to get to this point. So they could be non-Indigenous in other ways besides being white Australians.
And also acknowledge that we have First Nations people in Australia from other countries as well who have similar backgrounds, similar experiences of colonization. It's important to— even though that doesn't represent the diversity, it's important to understand that there is diversity there.
Because one of the things I see happen frequently is the use of terms like 'us' and 'them,' teachers and students, universities and schools, whereas all of that is part of a bigger system and an ongoing process of settler colonialism, and that's why the starting point needs to be everyone taking a step back and understanding what their role is on Country,
and capital C Country, not little c Australia. Because now you mentioned that there are acknowledgments that people do. To make it meaningful is to actually understand that Country is more than just the land that you're standing on, that it encompasses all the values and cultural obligations, the histories, the ancestors, are ancestral remains and the teachings from our ancestors, the practices for Aboriginal people.
So you're not just standing on land, you're actually standing on the fundamental basis for how we live as Aboriginal people. And that's in an ideal sense, but you can't not acknowledge the impact of colonization over 237 years.
So we've had like brutality from the start and even equally violent policies and regulations and schooling systems that have been put in place. So when you think about what it means for teachers today to embed Indigenous perspectives and acknowledge colonisation, people can't start where they are at the moment to do that because all of those histories are left out of the narrative.
And for us, our responsibility in universities educating pre-service teachers is to actually fill the gap firstly around what students aren't getting at school in order to change the cycle so that teachers going into schools have a greater understanding of the importance of knowing who they are on Aboriginal countries.
And that, as we say, and I fully Obviously fully believe this. These have always been places of learning and what teachers are doing today are just maintaining traditions that have been here for millennia.
Rebecca Cooper [07:10]: Jaya, what's been your experience? Did you go through the school system here and what have your experiences been?
Jaya Blandthorn [07:18]: Yeah, so I actually grew up in Swan Hill and went to public school up there and then moved for tertiary education when I was 18 and then did my nursing through Monash University.
Rebecca Cooper [07:29]: You went through the schooling system in Swan Hill? Swan Hill, yeah. And what were your experiences like?
Jaya Blandthorn [07:35]: Yeah, so I'll actually start with my primary school. Growing up in Swan Hill, I attended a Catholic school and it was a real struggle. I think I— oh, I was probably only one of four, maybe, Aboriginal kids that attended.
And I think I had a lot of troubles with school. It was really hard for me. I struggled to take in information. Just school just wasn't my strong suit. But the teachers sort of labelled me as the sporty girl. So there was never really enough investment in my education from primary school.
I was just labelled as, oh well, she'll be good at sport, so don't worry. I remember my mum actually took me for some testing at school to see if I had any learning difficulties like dyslexia or anything. And I did that testing there and they were like, oh, she'll be right though. There's nothing that's come up, but she's a good sportsman.
She'll be a netballer, don't worry. And my mum was like, okay. But obviously back in those times it was sort of just flicked under the rug. And then I went to high school and that was— I always felt too black to be white and too white to be black.
I was always in the middle somewhere. Like when I was asked for big sporting teams and everything, sport day, everyone wanted me. I was always on the team, always first picked. But when it was sitting down in school and academic and all those sort of things, I was no good. So I always felt like it was a struggle within myself how I fit in.
Like there's no, you know, there was no drive for teachers to really help with my schooling. Not to say all of the teachers. I had great, like some really great teachers that supported me along the way and really put in lots of effort. But I always thought the general consensus was, oh, it's all right, she's not going to get a good ATAR anyway.
She's not going to go anywhere. She's a sports star. So don't worry.
Rebecca Cooper [09:21]: So what would it have looked like if it was, if it was better, if it was a good experience for you?
Jaya Blandthorn [09:28]: What do you, what do you wish your teachers had have known? Oh, some cultural awareness. How can you teach if you don't understand? Especially for Aboriginal kids, we have a completely different lifestyle to non-Indigenous students. We also have a lot of family things we need to, like lots of our, lots of my cousins, like their obligations for family life, for home.
And sometimes school isn't the first priority. Sometimes we're struggling to get to school. Like, it's— there's so many different complexities that come with being a young Aboriginal person. And I think if schools are aware of that, they're able to actually implement things to help us.
Because if there's no background knowledge, how is anyone ever able to, to help us?
Rebecca Cooper [10:12]: So what does cultural awareness look like from a teacher or in a classroom for you? What would that look like?
Jaya Blandthorn [10:20]: There's not really much meaningful engagement. Usually when there's cultural awareness, it's something you tick through, something you can skip, skip, skip, skip. And no one ever, you know, when we do OH&S, I'm not reading through every single thing that's on a slide.
Rebecca Cooper [10:32]: So you mean in terms of professional learning for teachers, it's very just see it on a screen, hit the next, hit next.
Jaya Blandthorn [10:39]: Yeah.
Jay Phillips [10:40]: Okay.
Jaya Blandthorn [10:40]: There's no meaningful engagement. I think I'm not sure what the school system's like now. Obviously I'm 26 now. I've been out of the school system for quite some time, but when I was going to school, there was not really much of that. Our KESOs at school were the Koori educators. Again, there wasn't much engagement, no workshops, no speaking to the KESOs to see what we can, what they can do, or any understanding cultural awareness.
There was none of that. So I don't actually know what they did for their cultural awareness. I actually don't think it existed, to be honest.
Rebecca Cooper [11:10]: Does it exist now?
Jaya Blandthorn [11:12]: I think on some levels, yes. Jay could probably speak a bit more to that, but I don't. Again, I think it's something that's looked at as to tick a box. I don't think it's meaningful and I don't think it comes from a place of a genuine, like, perspective of, you know, I just think it's like, all right, it's another thing to add to my load.
Yeah, I think it's really difficult for teachers because they have such a high workload and lots of things they need to do. So I think it's just something that's looked at as an afterthought, not a, not a, not a planned, not a planned, deliberate.
Jay Phillips [11:47]: Yeah.
Rebecca Cooper [11:47]: Yeah, okay. So Jay, are teachers engaging with this sort of work?
Jay Phillips [11:51]: Some are, and Jay is absolutely right. You know, it is tick a box in some ways. Yet you do have individual teachers who are absolutely committed to the work but aren't supported systemically to work in ways that are culturally appropriate, even if it is just getting professional learning that goes beyond cultural awareness is the tip of the iceberg of what's needed.
I don't, as an Aboriginal person, someone can be aware of my experience but not change at all. Like the first lecture I did in universities back in the old days, talking like you've been out of school forever and ever.
Feels like that. Yeah. It was based on, you know, what's most popular and this was a long time ago, talking about Aboriginal people, this is our experience, you know, 'This is what colonisation did to us. This is how our families work together.' None of it built a relationship with the students' lifeworlds.
So after that first lecture, I was determined never to do that again. So I don't share my part of my story at all in a learning context because just bringing it to the attention of someone—
Rebecca Cooper [13:11]: Yep.
Jay Phillips [13:12]: Does not make a difference at all unless there's already an affinity or an experience that makes people understand how important it is for them to do it. So the way I teach and the way I do pre-service teacher education is to firstly build with foundational knowledge, so for students to actually develop for themselves an investment in the very history that have
created the traumas for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. But our survival also represents the strength. So if you look back at colonial history and settler colonialism, to have us sitting here from different generations being as strongly Aboriginal as each other Throughout that history is absolutely demonstrating our cultural strength.
And now with your two bubs and your man, you know, I think that there's the next generation there coming through with that strong sense and still asking for the same things that we've been asking for. So the first request for Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in Australia to teach or to learn about well, they call it and still call it Aboriginal history, even though it's not.
It's Australian history. The first call for that was in the late 1960s by the Australian Education Union. So there were students, university students saying we must do that. So the call has stayed exactly the same.
So to specifically answer your questions about whether what teachers are getting, what teachers are doing in relation to this, given the span of time From 1969 to 2026, that's 57 years of almost verbatim policy statements saying that it's important for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities and people to have universities and schools integrate Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander histories, you know, for the country,
but also for the growth of the country. For there to be very little difference in how schools operate and how universities train our teachers over 56 years shows that there's something systemic there that needs to be addressed.
So for the last 20 years, I've been— that's what I work on. I don't go in, I don't call it Aboriginal history because it's Australian history. I ensure that everything is done in a relational context to say— I did something on Monday because I was doing a presentation with Monash College and I used Copilot and I said, Copilot, tell me the history of Collins Street.
Melbourne, tell me 5 historical facts. 5 historical facts. It was named after Tom Collins. 3, 4 other things. You know, it was the one end was called the Paris end because it was so, you know, lively and blah, blah, blah.
And then, of course, no mention of the Kulin nations. So my second one question was, now copilot, tell me 5 historical facts about Collins Street that actually acknowledges the existence of the Kulin nations.
So it was framed in those ways, but it was just, okay, so the Kulin nations were dispossessed, the Kulin nations had a strong economy that existed that was kind of overlaid by, you know, the whatever was brought in by the invaders.
They didn't use— Copilot didn't use the word invaders. But what I— when I looked at it, it's like these are just two separate lists of historical facts. There was no kind of relationship that said because Aboriginal people Aboriginal people were massacred, because Aboriginal people were forcibly removed to missions and stations, forcibly excluded from the education system, all of that was why the
Paris End and the lively, you know, the lively streets of Melbourne could be. And it's that relationship that's really key because people don't have an investment unless they see. Their own histories in it.
So that's the first thing I do with my teaching and, you know, my curriculum design is to build that relationships. And there are all those different dimensions as well, like socially and culturally. Then you've got institutions like schools and churches, then the histories of the country.
So there's all that information that's filtered. And then at the very start, we already started the filter to exclude the experiences of Aboriginal people in the settlement of this nation. It can be challenging for students, but I've seen a slow shift over the last 20 years.
Rebecca Cooper [18:19]: What's the indication of that shift, Jay? What are you seeing?
Jay Phillips [18:23]: So in 2003, you know, it was my first class I'd written this unit, and it was in Queensland. And one of the students had responded to a question about, you know, like, where are you from? You know, what are some of the conversations that you have at home?
Just trying to identify where the social— what the social knowledge is. And he said, oh, you know, we kind of— yeah, we sit around and we, you know, there are Abo that live around us, but— and me, I was just like, okay, right.
It wasn't even game on, it was just like, 'Nah, this is normal, you know, this is out there.' A couple of students gasped, but then the process is to say, 'Well, where did that come from?' Blah, blah, blah. That would never happen today, and it seems like a strange thing, but I think looking at the way language has evolved, but also in the way that on social media, like I have seen the conversations shift.
You need to actually look for like the social context to find how people are viewing histories and understanding themselves differently. And for teachers to get that pre-training while they're in universities means that they can go out and be able to articulate, you know, these really challenging concepts and perhaps be change agents.
Rebecca Cooper [19:51]: Jay, you're agreeing there?
Jaya Blandthorn [19:52]: Yeah, absolutely. And real, the true history. I think there's so much history that's only just touched on it, and it wasn't just massacres, it wasn't just dispossession, it was much deeper than that. And I think we can never move forward altogether if that is not acknowledged.
I think that's a massive big thing. And people think, oh, so long ago, 250 or 238 years ago, it was like, it's not. My pop was born on the mission, Moonee Kulla. My dad, like, you know, my nan, my great-grandma used to send my pop out on a horse when he was 4 to fend for himself when the white men would come with their government cars and come and steal all the kids.
And, you know, I couldn't imagine putting my 4-year-old on a horse right now and say, no, fend for yourself. And when it's safe, is it ever safe? And I think my dad tells me stories all the time about Nan lining all my aunties and uncles up by the door and making sure they look prim and proper and immaculate, because if an Aboriginal kid went to school had a bit of snot, which is so normal for kids, or a bit of something that looked out of, you know, the hair wasn't done properly, or any excuse to remove children.
That's what would happen. My dad's 50 this year. Like, that's not 238 years ago. It still happens today. Children are removed. So, like, and you would actually be surprised at the numbers in healthcare by just the lack of cultural awareness, any understanding of Aboriginal people at all, and kids are removed straight away.
And it's, it creates such a horrible turmoil of intergenerational trauma that we still have to manage on our own. And it's just nothing's ever going to push forward if the real histories aren't actually acknowledged. Because yeah, I think that's really important as well, is that lots of things can be triggering these days.
And I like You know, I've had lots of comments about, oh, the students don't really— they get triggered by listening to these things. We're triggered. We're triggered every day. We walk into a space where we— it's our life. We, you know, put our hearts in every day to do the things we do, and we're triggered every day.
History is triggering. It should be triggering. Well, I'll ask you, why are you triggered? Why does it trigger you? That's a really big thing as well.
Rebecca Cooper [22:10]: So if we're really looking for change agents, you know, if we really are looking for preservice teachers and for teachers to go and be change agents, there's a big piece of internal work there for them to do around this sort of building that relationship, understanding it as Australian history, and being willing to sit in that really uncomfortable space and work through it.
Is that where we're at? Is that where we are?
Jaya Blandthorn [22:36]: Yeah, absolutely.
Rebecca Cooper [22:38]: Yeah. Okay. So then if there are, I mean, there will be teachers listening to this. Where do they start this work? Where do they begin to build that relationship for themselves with that history?
Jaya Blandthorn [22:52]: I think the onus 99% of the time is on the Aboriginal person. There'll always be an Aboriginal person in some organization and they run straight to that Aboriginal person and say, oh, please teach me, please, please. You do the work for me essentially. And it's not up to us to have to educate on this.
And I think the onus is always on us and it's not cultural load, it's colonial load. Like we shouldn't have to sit there and teach things that, you know, you can go and do yourself. So as easy as like the internet is a, you know, a place to start.
It's a simple, easy, accessible where everyone can use it.
Jay Phillips [23:31]: Being able to ask the right questions. Yeah. Like if you're Googling, ask the right questions. Yeah. So there's some reflection required before that.
Jaya Blandthorn [23:39]: And not just Wikipedia, like, you know, do some journal— I might— the nurse out of me is like journal articles and like articles that have been written by Aboriginal people and that are Aboriginal-led as well. And that's really important.
Rebecca Cooper [23:51]: So it goes to asking the right sort of questions and looking for the right sort of sources in the first place.
Jay Phillips [23:57]: But also we've got, again, a responsibility as those who are training future professionals like at Monash. I'm doing it with education students, but in my previous university There was environmental scientists, agriculture, ruralist.
What do you call it? Agricultural—
Rebecca Cooper [24:15]: agricultural—
Jay Phillips [24:18]: agriculturalist. And social workers, like all the service industries. But there's also way beyond that. So, you know, equine science is another degree, you know, that we work to train professionals toward.
Because again, it's like your relationship to country. And there are histories in this country that aren't just Aboriginal people, you know, suffering under the policies and the legislation of colonialism. It really is about our contribution to building this nation.
So when you think about Aboriginal people and horses, my great-great-great-grandmother was like this amazing stockwoman. We only know because there was one photo that was taken of her on a horse in Gayndah in Southeast Queensland, where I'm from.
But that gets filtered out of Australian history as well. It's not just things that will make our people, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, reinforce us as poverty-stricken and all those deficit discourses that are so predominant still.
It's all of the contributions that we have made and that they, you know, are forgotten about in, in the whole. And also You can't just balance it up saying, well, these are the good things, these are the bad things, put them together, they neutralize each other.
No, that doesn't happen that way. So guided, you know, for us in this system, we have to take responsibility for training students for their professions and understanding how all professions have impacted the lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in one way or another and asking that question specifically just so they can reflect beyond just themselves and what they're doing.
Rebecca Cooper [26:04]: That sort of makes me think about the connections to curriculum. And the way the curriculum is framed isn't going to in any way highlight those sorts of contributions or connections for teachers.
Jaya Blandthorn [26:21]: System wasn't built for us.
Jay Phillips [26:23]: No.
Jaya Blandthorn [26:23]: We were excluded, secluded, put onto missions, and then told that's where we need to stay. You know, can't go out past a certain amount of time, can't do this, can't do this. It was such restraints and restrictions and then expected, oh yeah, now, yeah, now you can all of a sudden come into school, come and do all these things.
And it's like we're starting on the back burner. Aboriginal people weren't even allowed to. We got what our rights recognized as citizens in 1967. My pop was 23. And then when they first started to be able to buy housing, it was like, oh, you can buy a house, but you've got to buy it.
Where it's really poor and like you can only buy in this certain area. So in every aspect of life, we were put at the bottom. Systems weren't built with us in mind. They were sort of— they were built to exclude us.
Jay Phillips [27:14]: And your example of child safety, you know, child organizations for child safety of, you know, one of my friends works in that as an Aboriginal woman, she would do things very differently than non-Indigenous people going and checking because the lens would be different, you know.
And, you know, people would come in and look at a house, look, like you said, that's messy and make certain judgments about it because there are Aboriginal people in the room. And, you know, my friend would go and say, this is just a normal house. My house.
Jaya Blandthorn [27:47]: Yeah, your house is allowed to be messy. If someone comes into my house today, it's a bomb. I've got 2 young kids, that's normal. And like I was saying, when Nan used to have to like look at the kids, my dad, before they went to school, I don't have to worry about doing that now. But that is something that's very— I still have like trauma from that.
I'm always making sure my kids are pristine. Like I have absolute trauma from that, from Dad telling me those stories. And still that impacts, you know, how I send my kids to school, how I present myself, because it's so embedded that we have to be.
Perfect, pristine, or something can happen.
Rebecca Cooper [28:23]: What helps you move on from that?
Jaya Blandthorn [28:26]: Oh, my people. Yeah, my family. Yeah. Aboriginal people are born with responsibility from the moment, you know. So, yeah, I just work for my people, my family.
Rebecca Cooper [28:36]: Yeah.
Jaya Blandthorn [28:37]: Yeah.
Rebecca Cooper [28:37]: And how does it connect with the work you're doing now?
Jaya Blandthorn [28:40]: Yeah, lots of ways.
Jay Phillips [28:41]: Where?
Jaya Blandthorn [28:41]: Yeah. Pabanato is an initiative that Joe Tai created last year and It's about embedding Indigenous knowledge systems and aligning that with the ACARA standards. So for the curriculum to bring school-age kids from Year 7 to Year 12 and bring them to find immersive cultural knowledge activities.
So a lot of our knowledge and a lot of knowledge that's been transferred, you know, medications, for example, all of our plant knowledge that was used to make the medications we have today. So that's sort of putting that back into knowledge so school-age kids can walk away with that, with that knowledge and that understanding and be like, wow, Wow, this didn't just happen from colonization.
Like, this was already here. Aboriginal people already had the answers. We're already doing, you know, medicine and all these things. Like, we weren't just hunters and gatherers, which is what I was taught at school. Captain Cook discovered Australia and I was in year 9. Yep. And, you know, we were just hunters and gatherers.
So much more than that. And I think it's— I really see when the kids actually, like, learn things, you can see their brain, they go, wow, this is amazing.
Rebecca Cooper [29:46]: So the Pabanata Initiative is actually taking this into schools. That's—
Jaya Blandthorn [29:52]: you're in schools, come to us, the schools come to you. Okay. And use the Jock Marshall Reserve, right? Aboriginal garden, right?
Rebecca Cooper [29:59]: And that's at Monash.
Jaya Blandthorn [30:00]: Yeah.
Rebecca Cooper [30:01]: Yep.
Jaya Blandthorn [30:01]: Yep. And yeah, we take them through a songlines activity, which is oral language.
Rebecca Cooper [30:06]: Yep.
Jaya Blandthorn [30:06]: And it's like a scavenger hunt. The kids love it, but we hide totems around the Jock Marshall Reserve, little koalas and kangaroos. We show them where they are and then they have to sing their songline of the instructions on where where each location was just using landscape in the country around them.
No westernised, yeah, no westernised things like buildings or the signs, none of that, just completely in the landscape. And yeah, the kids love it and it's really, you know, it opens the door for understanding of like, wow, this is really complex.
We did this over— our people did this over kilometres and kilometres of terrain to get to different locations. Like, this isn't just as simple as is, you know, going from spot to spot. Like, yeah, it's complex.
Rebecca Cooper [30:51]: What's the impact then on the kids and the teachers?
Jaya Blandthorn [30:55]: The teachers are really immersed. We had a pilot of principals and teachers, and they, like, it just unlocked like a part of their brain. They were like, this is amazing, like, I can't wait to bring our kids here. And which is so great to see them so excited.
And the kids, like, they love it. Like, their mind is blown. They go, wow, like, Aboriginal 'Well, you used to have to do this over kilometres and kilometres.' I'm like, yeah, it's, it's actually insane when you think about it. It's not a little thing. And when you're watching their brains and as they're walking around the Jock Marshall Reserve, like it's, yeah, it's, you nearly have to dissociate or else you start crying just of how exciting it really is when.
Yeah. So I think, and it's great for teachers as well because actually they get to, I guess, engage with us, but we get to, to do that part of the teaching for them. By Aboriginal people, like it's Koori people from Victoria taking you through these things.
Like, that's a really big thing as well. Yeah.
Rebecca Cooper [31:54]: So, so then for the teachers then going back into the classroom and really continuing this sort of work, is there some sort of support for them in that way? Is it connected? Is it ongoing?
Jaya Blandthorn [32:08]: So that will be something we're getting to. At the moment we're just piloting schools, but we are looking at pre and post work so they can make it a full full unit, whatever they want to— whatever it's called now. But yeah, at the moment it's just getting our— getting Pabinata out there and getting as much engagement.
We also do it, sorry, for corporate partners as well and external. Yeah. So if Monash Council want to come in and do that, we run that through there as well. And yeah, the third step is having a rangers program. So having Aboriginal people at Monash that are looking after the landscape.
Rebecca Cooper [32:40]: So it's a broader educational program. So starting with schools, but actually community-based, really looking to educate the community.
Jay Phillips [32:48]: Yeah. Yeah.
Rebecca Cooper [32:48]: Okay. Terrific. So then with these sorts of initiatives happening, teachers back in classrooms, we're trying to get Indigenous perspectives embedded across the whole of the curriculum. What are you hearing from teachers in classrooms?
Are they engaging with this at all?
Jaya Blandthorn [33:08]: Well, Pāmanana is very early. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the first year we're doing this. So I guess we'll know by trial and error and how many want to book in with us. Yep. So we have a school potentially coming out next week, which is great. But yeah, we won't really know until the end of the year how much engagement we have.
Jay Phillips [33:25]: Okay. So this is where history teaches us something though. Like I've done research as part of a team for about 201 schools in Australia. And what we kind of coined this phrase that teachers and schools suffer from shiny object syndrome when it comes to Indigenous education.
So with something as amazing as what that is now, Paabanata is now, and what it could become, there's a danger for that shiny object syndrome to come into play.
And instead of doing the proper work in the classroom to support it, it would be just, righty-o, this is what I'm doing for my Indigenous perspectives or the requirements of ACARA in term 4 or whatever.
Rebecca Cooper [34:19]: And we're back to ticking the box.
Jay Phillips [34:21]: Yeah, so it is, it will be, and all of the energy that's put into these amazing Indigenous-led programs you know, universities and schools have to understand how to contextualize it but also provide in-service training.
But, you know, it does need to be— we need to contextualize it. Like, I think it starts with us. And what Jaya said is really important. It kind of speaks to what kids will miss out on if it's not done properly, like the excitement of kids going in.
Like, kids are interested in this. They can be asked challenging questions. Some older— the older you get, the harder it is to be challenged, but it's not impossible because, you know, I've seen it happen over and over, people shifting from where they originally started and, you know, fully embracing their responsibility.
My nephew, you know, just think about him in grade 3. He would, when they said draw this one activity, draw the Australian flag, he drew the Aboriginal flag. And his white mates around him also drew the Aboriginal flag, you know, and there's that conversation that happens and that, you know, that sharing that kids get to do with each other, especially in the early years where there's a lot of really good work happening, but it's kind of focused too heavily because I think it's easier
to work with younger children than it is to do the difficult work with teenagers, you know, love them to bits. But, you know, another story about challenging conversations, but also the assumptions that the shiny object syndrome can create.
My nephew, again, him and his little mate who's non-Indigenous Australian, like, they just— they used to be these two old men, you know, that were friends from the time they were 4 years old and still are our friends. And Mickey was his name, was really interested.
They'd just done in grade 3 this lesson on Aboriginal histories, and Mickey turned to my nephew, Birrin, and just said, "What was it like living all those years ago?" You know, because what they were showing was traditional, you know, dance.
And Birrin just said, "I don't know." I don't know. I wasn't born in the year 2000. He's probably the same age as you. Yeah. And it was like, oh, okay, well, that kind of conversation corrected an assumption that, you know, Mickey could have gone away with. That speaks to the teacher's choices in that situation.
So having broader representation that we aren't just a part of history, I can— we can sit here not wearing, you know, shaking gum leaf branches, still be Aboriginal because our cultural, you know, it's not about what we wear.
Jaya Blandthorn [37:18]: What we look like, how we speak.
Jay Phillips [37:19]: Yeah, it is about the values we have growing up, but also the experiences, Jaya, that you've described about learning how to operate in the world as an Aboriginal person because there are things out there that we have to be able to deal with in order to bring up our next healthy generation like you are, Tori.
Rebecca Cooper [37:42]: So bringing us to a close here, what's the one thing you really want teachers in classrooms to do or to understand?
Jay Phillips [37:54]: It goes back to what I first said, that teachers need to understand they're part of a system that contributes to the reasons why it's important, going back to 1969, to actually have education include not just content but processes for understanding all of our places in this country and the ramifications, not just for us, the privileges that that has provided.
So it's a very difficult and challenging thing, I know, to know that the land that you bought was actually stolen from Kulin nations, and that what we understand here now is that that ownership belongs and rests with anyone in this room, me included, who owns a house.
And I own a house on Wiradjuri country. That, that's the history that's underlying it. And for teachers, they need to be able to reflect but also analyze what schools have done as a profession to minimize the possibilities of Aboriginal and Indigenous people in this country being educated, but still we get educated.
Like, that's showing the strength, so there's always that side. Yeah, so I— that would be my answer: understanding people's self, but also the role and responsibilities they have because of the profession they have entered into.
Jaya Blandthorn [39:27]: Really good. But I think teachers just taking a step back, I think just removing themselves. Usually they're obviously the smartest in the room teaching students and on lots of different topics. But Aboriginal Australian history is very different.
So I think removing themselves from being the know-all in the room and actually just sitting back, reflecting and immersing themselves in the true history and the systems that are built today. And I think the— that it's not something in the past.
I think teachers really need to understand that it's still very much an issue. Like, ironically, it's National Close the Gap Day and there are 19 points and only 4 of them are on track and lots of them are regressing. So I think it's— we are so far from closing the gap and education is a big one that they are responsible for.
So I think, yeah, really just removing the 'yo, it was long ago' and it's not, it's today, it's still happening, it's future. We've got a lot of work to do. So I think, yeah, that's really important.
Rebecca Cooper [40:34]: Thank you both so very much for an absolutely amazing conversation. I feel really privileged to have been able to speak to both of you today. And what really has come through in this conversation is that rethinking Indigenous perspectives in education isn't something that's going to be resolved through a single strategy or resource.
It's about shifting how teaching itself is approached, and that takes ongoing reflection, shared responsibility, and genuine connection with the community. And while it can feel complex and uncomfortable, it's also where the work begins, most importantly for both students and educators, and where the greatest potential for real change sits.
Thank you.
Jaya Blandthorn [41:15]: Thank you.
Rebecca Cooper [41:16]: We've included a wealth of practical resources in our show notes that support your teaching journey. Be sure to check them out. If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review, and follow us on social media. We are grateful for the support of Monash University's Faculty of Education in producing this podcast.
For more information on short courses and undergraduate and postgraduate study options, head to monash.edu.au/education/learnmore. Thanks again for listening to Let's Talk Teaching.
